[cryten]

First a disclaimer.  I looked on this board and haven't really seen this discussed to the depths I would like.  If you have discussed this and don't want to any further, I respect that but, please, don't dismiss or belittle this topic for others.

Now my issue is initiative passes as it relates to Street Samurais.  I am coming from a background of predominantly shadowrun editions 1 and 2.  I have read 3 and am playing currently in 4 and about to run it as well.  I do love 4th edition in a lot of ways.  The one thing about this edition and 3rd as well, that continues to stick in my craw is the removal of the advantage Street Sams had in combat by making sure everyone gets a go before the Street Sam gets the remainder of their goes.

On a game play angle, I can understand the impetus to not have everyone sitting idly by while the Sam mows down the competition and leaves the scraps for others.  To me, however, it is an aesthetic change as people simply sit at the end of the round as opposed to the beginning.   Now, someone can take down or hurt the Sam, theoretically, before he gets his goes when in my estimation, the essence and money cost the street Sam pays is for the explicit advantage to go before anyone else.  It's what they do.  It's what they pay the Essence and Nuyen for:  To go before all others; not go, wait, wait, wait, and go some more.

Also, it isn't as if mages and shamans couldn't access the same advantage magically.  To me, if you have the means to do something but choose not to, it isn't the fault of the system, it's a choice made and that has to be lived with.

By changing  the order of the way combat plays out, you take the teeth from the Samurai without compensating them for the loss.  Essence cost is the same and it's still a lot monetarily.  It's no more of an advantage than magic is and, in my estimation, magic isn't de-clawed nearly as much.

I know it's an easy fix in my game to either keep initiative how I liked it or to modify Essence and Nuyen costs to allow more mods for the Sam.  I'm really seeing if anyone can explain why this is widely viewed as better and not the neutering of Street Sams I see it as.

[All4BigGuns]

I think the main issue is that movement rates get cut to peanuts when someone in the combat turn has three IPs since movement gets divided by the number of passes in the turn even if only one combatant has whatever amount that is, but that would be easily fixed if the designers would just change that rule so that movement is per pass rather than per turn (better for it to be a designer rule change than for the house rule stuff).

[Falconer]

This was changed back in 3rd ed... and it was a good change.  You're welcome to your opinion but it's a minority one I feel.


That said, you could always re-implement the old initiative system if you really wanted to.

It's not that hard to roll +1d6, 2d6, 3d6... add it to reaction to work up an initiative total and run off it.  If anything it makes combat far less predictable and more random as no one ever knows if they have more than one pass coming to them at the start of a combat turn.

Though I still prefer the 3e version of that system.. .where everyone gets at least one turn before anyone gets a second action.

[cryten]

Thanks for the replies.

All4BigGuns: I hadn't thought about the movement rates.  I'm in aggrement with you though that it's not that hard a fix and in my opinion not worth the weakening of the combat monster the Street Sam is supposed to be.

Falconer: Yeah, I know it came about in 3rd.  But what I'd really like to know is why you feel its a better move and does no one really miss the way Street Sams were back in 1st and 2nd.  I know I can always implement my preferred initiative system.

I'm open to having my viewpoint changed, I just haven't come across a differing opinion that can do it.  Game balance isn't the answer for me, when magic is magic.  The playing field can always be levelled magically or scales tipped with spirits and rituals and other tools at the magician's disposal.

How is this not nerfing the the Sam, but magic still is the major difference maker it always was?

Thanx in advance.

[ArkangelWinter]

Characters with 3 or 4 IPs in 4e still stomp most enemies easily with initiative remaining as is. And it's very rare in 4e for there to only be one guy with a ton of IPs in a given combat.

And Mages have...a ton of ways for a GM to make them miserable.

[Falconer]

Cryten... it has nothing to do with magic vs sam...

A mage/adept can also work up nearly the same +initiative that a sam can using increase reflexes and a spell lock (sustaining focus).  Same initiative by different means is simply a rolloff for who goes first.


The problem is that others like say combat deckers... guards... gangers... etc.    I'm all good with the first going down in a hurry with surprise... even a second if you have another fast character... but the rest of them at least deserve a chance to dive for cover.

The game is already very deadly, and I feel it loses a lot if it's too easy to just gun down everything before anything has a chance to react.   Also it loses tactical/strategic depth.   What's the plan... the street sam walks in the door shoots anything that moves... rinse.. repeat...  As opposed to having to work a little harder to surprise the opposition and show some teamwork.

That's just my feel on things.  Also as a player... I want the decker/rigger/etc. when THEIR pants get caught down... to have a chance to dive for cover when the sam gets the jump on them... rather than end up with a TPK.  Simply because of a lousy initiative roll on their part.

At least in 4e, we got rid of that awful light/med/serious/deadly scale... the new damage track is a lot more granular at least.

[_Pax_]

The one thing about this edition and 3rd as well, that continues to stick in my craw is the removal of the advantage Street Sams had in combat by making sure everyone gets a go before the Street Sam gets the remainder of their goes.

  Because it was oh so much fun being the Mage, and by the time it gets to your turn in combat ... the fight's over, so you never get to do jack over squat.

  At least now, everyoen gets to do ONE THING in combat.  Sure, the high-initiative-pass Samurai is still going to do MOST of the fighting ... but at least it won't be ALL of the fighting.

Also, it isn't as if mages and shamans couldn't access the same advantage magically.

  .... and have an astrally-projecting enemy ground out a high-force Fireball, or even Hellblast, through your sustaining focus?  No, thanks.

[cryten]

Wow.  Ok.

Falconer:  Point.  I never thought about diving for cover.  Now, did I run that wrong?  I always played it as if a character could always dive for cover (or take a defensive action) it would just eat your next available action.  Now that you mention it, did I house rule that?  Are you always flat-footed?  If so, what's the difference being caught by surprise as I thought that was when you couldn't take a defensive action.  I played other games where you always had a defensive action so maybe that's what I just naturally applied to SR.

If i did do that wrong, then I can see your point and then there would be a reason to re-tool the way it all works, I'm not necessarily sure I would nerf the Street Sam like that, but I could understand the rationale.

Same initiative by different means is simply a rolloff for who goes first

That's kinda what I thought people had a problem with, not going as fast or as many times as the Sam.  My point is the option was already there to make it a roll-off to who goes first.  Whether you chose it or not is on you.

Pax: Thanks for the reply, but if I'm right, didn't grounding out a spell (which I also liked) get trashed in 3rd along with the way initiative worked?  So if they kept the Sam lightning quick, then mages and others could get the same advantage magically w/o the worry of grounding spells thru the spell lock.  My point kinda still stands on that part that the option was there but if it wasn't chosen, that's not the system's fault.  Now that you brought it up, I could see nixing one of those, but both was an overkill IMHO.

Everyone doing one thing in combat. true.  But wasn't the main thing about the Sam on both sides to be THE combat monster.  If they went before the others went....well wasn't that their schtick.  No one complains about the Rigger doing most of the driving, or the Technomancer doing most/all of the hacking, or the mage/shaman doing all of the astral combat/spellslinging...etc.  I know combat is the part of the game everyone can participate in but they could all do it in their own way, why begrudge the Sam his way?

I don't see a problem if initiative stayed the way it was.  The drone rigger, hot-simmed, would get multiple goes (possibly pre-empting some of the Sam's own goes).  Mercs or Company Men, which are now gone, would get multiple goes...maybe not as many, depending on cyber advantages (but still pre-empting some of the Sam's goes)...but the Street Sam would be the top of the food chain; if you chose to go that way, that was your advantage.  Now, not so much. 

I hope I'm not coming across as too argumentative or bull-headed, not my intention, just trying to wrap my head around why this was done, if there were good reasons other than "game balance".

[Walks Through Walls]

I see it as a balancing of power of sorts, and also added realism to the game in ways. I'll try to explain my point.

Old way: A street sam with an automatic weapon fires a burst and clips the first 3 gangers with a bullet each with enough dice to stage them dead(with 1 simple action) then repeats on second action. Goes again and 3 more go down and 3 more, third turn same as the first and second. Now for my last action I cap their leader with the full burst since he is the only one still standing.

Now: Street sam fires with a burst and kills one ganger with each simple action. Now they get to respond then I can act three more times killing two each time.

The Street sam is still a combat monster, but now has to think rather than just spray and count the dead.

Under the previous rules those with high initiative were nearly invulnerable as they could mow down a crowd of people without pause. Now while still deadly they have to fear the crowd. I GM'd more games in 2nd edition(in the hundreds) and 4th (not quite that many yet) then I ever played in either and found that before it was almost impossible for anyone without augmentation to stand up to an augmented person no matter how many people there were under the old initiative rules. This is no longer the case.

At the same time they reduced the power of mages in many ways too. For example the having to buy magic instead of starting at 6.

On a side note you are right they have done away with the grounding of spells.

[PeterSmith]

But wasn't the main thing about the Sam on both sides to be THE combat monster.

I think a troll with a Panther Cannon is supposed to be THE combat monster.

And while I understand where you're coming from, I think I have to agree with those who are saying "fun balance" moreso than "game balance" are the reasons behind the change.

[All4BigGuns]

In the previous edition, it was explained to me that a manaball was one of the few spells that could cross over from astral normally (I could have been told wrong of course). If this was the case, then a mage would be just as fast--if not faster--than all but the fastest of street sams and could wreck their worlds without that much difficulty. If I was told wrong, then okay, but if I was informed correctly, then what exactly is the complaint about the mage not being able to do anything under the old initiative system--I believe if that case is accurate, then that complaint is debunked right there.

[Falconer]

Free Actions...   A character may not take a free action prior to his first Action Phase....  (suggest reading this stretch in detail it's worded very awkwardly).  By strict reading, you cannot use a free action until your own action OR LATER in any initiative pass.   (IE: you can't save your free action from one IP... then use it on the following IP before you act again by strict RAW reading).

Free actions Include... drop prone, talk, run.

So yeah... if they don't win initiative... they get gunned down rooted in spot... without any chance to drop to the ground or run for cover until it reaches their turn (action phase).

But otherwise, pretty much concur with the wall walker.




Yeah grounding out was removed thankfully... I saw that abused so badly it wasn't funny.  (most common was a mage using force 1 spirits... with orders to materialize on the next action... at which point the mage would immediately ground out offensive spells from the astral directly on mundane targets without warning).

As far as grounding out a spell through an active focus... please do!    Spell pool used to counterspell... followed by nuking astral forms (casting while projecting back then was a bit more punishing).  Also most mages have a nasty habit of using astral perception most of the time anyhow except when they have a reason to shift to normal I find.   So generally I could just as easily ground out through the mage in many cases.

In any case... like I said... I'm ecstatic that they saw the light and got rid of grounding out ages ago... one of the best things ever done to limit mages and protect mundanes ever!   There's only two ways I know to screw people over directly from the astral now... possession spirits (which are magically able to attack people directly from the astral to take them over and not a thing they can do about it!     And cast mana static which termporarily disrupts the mana in an area.... which only screws over other magical types who can defend themselves anyhow.


All4:
No.  Grounding out a mana spell was always a single target...
You needed to use an indirect spell to produce an area blast while grounding.

[All4BigGuns]

All4:
No.  Grounding out a mana spell was always a single target...
You needed to use an indirect spell to produce an area blast while grounding.

Like I said, I could've been told wrong, but in case I wasn't explaining well, I'll try to rephrase.  Basically, what I was told was that there were certain kinds of spells that could be cast across the "barrier" between physical and astral without anything special needed. I thought it was mana spells, but it might have been something else (grounding I'd never even heard of before coming to these forums).

[_Pax_]

Everyone doing one thing in combat. true.  But wasn't the main thing about the Sam on both sides to be THE combat monster.

  The Samurai is still a combat monster.  If he has three initiative passes, he'll still be banging out six short bursts, and that's probably six (and at LEAST three) enemies who are absolutely hamburger dead, every combat turn.

  The trick is, with the way initiative works now?  The rest of the team doesn't stand there with their thumbs up their collective asses, wondering why they even BOTHERED to roll initiative in the first place.  They at least get to contribute to each combat - even if their contribution is half or a third as much as the combat-monster Samurai's is.  "Some" is definitely better than "none".

If they went before the others went....well wasn't that their schtick.

  It wasn't just that the Samurai went first - even now, someone with a lot of initiative boost is probably going to go FIRST.

  The problem was that the Samurai got to gofirst, second, third, and often fourth ... before anyone else got to act AT ALL.

  It was to the point where either EVERYONE jacked their initiative as high as they could, hoping tt act just once in combat before the super-initiative-junkies wiped the board completely clean ... or you just didn't bother to roll initiative at all.  Nor carry a gun, learn a combat spell, or ANYthing relating to combat at all.  Because, you know, if you didn't have at least the ability to break high twenties with initiative?  You were never going to USE a gun, a combat spell, or what have you.  Ever.  At all.  Period.

I know combat is the part of the game everyone can participate in but they could all do it in their own way, why begrudge the Sam his way?

  And that's just the thing.  If you had a Samurai who could reliably push initiative scores of 30 or 40?  Noone but thats amurai would be participating in any way, except as spectators.

  Seriously.  I had a character who reliably got initiative scores of 42 to 44 - that was an average result on the dice.  It was possible for him to just barely break FIFTY.

  So picture, you can get a 21 on a good roll, and you do.  I get a TYPICAL roll, and have a 43.  You know how combat goes, against half a dozen mooks and one "real threat" ...?

At 53, I kill 2, and 4 are left.
At 43, I kill 2 more, and 2 are left.
At 33, I kill the last two mooks, and only their leader is left.
At 23, I kill the leader.
At 22 combat ends

... and you never got to act.  At all.  In the slightest degree.  Your turn simply never came up.

And this happens not just in one combat, or two, but EVERY.  SINGLE.  TIME.  Run after run, combat after combat, your character is a fifth wheel, and I am the sole, singular Star Of The Show.

...

Is that really what you're advocating?

Because now ...?  Even if I have four initiative passes, and you only have ONE ...?

FIRST INITIATIVE PASS
... with my godlike Initiative, I kill 2 mooks before you can blink;
... you unload with everything and kill the leader;
SECOND INITIATIVE PASS
... I kill the third and fourth mooks;
THIRD INITIATIVE PASS
... I kill the fifth and sixth mooks
combat ends

I've still waxed six of the seven enemies.  I'm still "the king of combat".  But you got to contibute ... meaningfully.  Even if all you did was seriously wound the leader, in the fourth and final IP, my samurai would then be able to finish him off ,,, and your contribution is STILL meaningful (because maybe I didn't have to blow a point or two of Edge making sure he went down in one IP)

Either way, now we're BOTH happy.  See how that works? 

[All4BigGuns]

Not necessarily, as I've seen an unaugmented human mundane with old school Adrenaline Surge advantage/edge/quality go three or four times before a street sam with Synaptic Accelerator level 2 in SR3 quite often, and he generally one-shotted or at least two-shotted whatever he shot at.