[Sichr]

Just for my info: what is the practical difference of Cannot learn to summon and Cannot summon?

[nifoc]

Maybe it is my lack of ability to understand english text.
Like Ive heard it before:
I agree we disagree.

No problem.

The discussion did bring up an interesting question though. Within the existing rules I can find no way for a mage to summon spirits outside his tradition, but the tradition is simply a mental framework that forms the mages understanding of magic it is not something that irrevocably alters the magicians soul. A magician should therefore theoretically be able to both study the frameworks of other traditions, as in studying other scientific disciplines, or even adopt a new tradition. This means that a magician should be able to learn how to summon spirits outside his tradition.

While the more religion-like traditions, the above mentioned zoroastrian faith for example, might consider it bad form, or even heresy, to do so, the scientific minded ones, like hermeticism, would most likely consider it a natural development of their studies.

Either:
a) You can never change your outlook on magic, once you choose a tradition you are stuck with it for the rest of your life. IMO this sounds like a boring solution.
b) While following a given tradition you are unable to summon spirits outside of that tradition. This means that anyone believing that magic is based on application of knowledge (hermetics, chaos magicians) are just plain wrong. Since this is so easy to discover, anyone following these traditions would be an idiot. Therefore this is a bad idea.
c) You can summon spirits outside your tradition if you have the knowledge. This makes the religious-minded traditions just as stupid as the scientific ones would be if "b" were true, also a bad idea.

Wierd that I'd never even considered this problem before

[nifoc]

Just for my info: what is the practical difference of Cannot learn to summon and Cannot summon?

Cannot Summon means that he cannot at this point summon...

Cannot learn to summon means that (barring divine intervention) he can never summon...

[Sichr]

FORWAAAARD 

IMO...
There are concewpts...like guardian, guidance, beast, plant...that inherrently means that you believe that something like  immortal soul/ concept of god/ mother nature / Gaia...etc exists.
If you look at those "scientific" approaches, they are suing just 4 elements and the human consciousness as the measure for whole existence. So it is not different from religious traditions...they have earth/fire/water/air and everything else is construct of human consciousness...they simply dont believe in spirits of ancestors, so they dont see guardians or guides, they see that like a voice of human subconsciousness or something like this...
IMO...
Someone wrote in one of threads Ive read before, that whole shadowrun mysticism is based on works of Joseph Campbell
He was descripting entities other nations and cultures believe...well he interprets them as archetyps and images with psychosocial context, not as real divine entities...seems like one of those Hermetics

[nifoc]

The problem is that spirits are NOT just archetypes that exist when the magician calls them into existance.

Firstly there are free spirits that contradict the hypothesis that spirits are simply energies mimicing a form that the magician finds comfortable within his tradition.

Secondly, even if that had been true, it would have confirmed the scientific traditions world-view, discrediting the spiritual world-views altogether.

Thirdly, since spirits exist independently of the magician, it fails to explain why a spirit interpreted by a hermetic as an air spirit and a shaman as a beast spirit would have different powers. If they are different spirit types, then we are back to them not being interpreted through the lens of the magician.

I reject your point that the usage of anthropomorfic spirit archetypes demands, or even suggests a belief in the soul or a deity. These concepts, such as Guardian, Guidance etc., can just as easily be interpreted as platonic ideals, goethic demons (i.e. aspects of the magicians own "dark" desires) or any of a hundred other purely psychological divisions.

It would help to understand how magical traditions come into being. How does the creator of a new tradition choose what spirits govern which aspect of magic? Can he even choose or does every tradition exist in absentia the magician as a fully formed idea, therefore a tradition can never be designed only discovered?

[Sichr]

It would help to understand how magical traditions come into being. How does the creator of a new tradition choose what spirits govern which aspect of magic? Can he even choose or does every tradition exist in absentia the magician as a fully formed idea, therefore a tradition can never be designed only discovered?

This is the only part I can answer exactly right here, right now:
You open the SRAniversary corebook on the page 180.
You follow steps 1..4
You gain permit from your GM to play this tradition

Tradition is created - exists "In absentia"

You take Magician quality when creating your character
You assign your tradition to the character...
You may possibly take a Mentor spirit up to it...well that didnt change the fact that the Tradition now exists in your roleplay.
Thats it


sorry to take it short, but its a bit late here in the heart of the Europe and Im going to sleep. I simply love this GEEKISM discussion we should continue tomorow...and I hope for more voices - ideas...

[nifoc]

I meant within the context of the setting obviously. I understand how it is created by the player,  I want to know how it is created by the character.

I'm in Sweden myself so I get that.

[Sichr]

 
srry just a joke
 

To answer your question...I know the same what you do. Ive been creating some characters and during the creation Ive been thinking about this questions and when GMing I had saw some other traditions in use, both at players and NPC`s, and in fact when creating the character the background story and the tradition depends on each other very close. When choosing the tradition, you are chosing whole modus operandi for the character, and character must adapt to it.
If you want to know more about what was on the basics of current magical traditions as RAW, I`d suggest you to read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

And about the magician being born, I only know what Street magic told me. The concept where magician creates his own way is a Chaos Tradition. Others are thaught...and maybe some of them are not thaught but kept secret.
About the other interpretations...I remember that in one of books...i think it was Never deal with the dragon, Sam verner was approached by his totem..coyote IMO. those concepts are not part of the game, but I would interpret it that he had been chosen by some metaplanar entity to guide him...and it doesnt matter if the Great Coyote and Great Squirrell and Great Penguin is the same Spirit of the Beast...or if he is just one of many representatives of Beast`s metaplane.
Same goes with spirits of elements...and I dont know it the same goes for others...ie Voodoo has all three faces of human: Man, Guidance and Guardian...and I suppose that every one of them would take you to different metaplane if asked...
And the same goes with resonance streams and paragons IMO...

[Sichr]

srry, I have the feeling this is not exactly rules interpretaation thread any more...maybe we should ask Mod to move this to Secret history or something like that?

[nifoc]

None of that really answered the question I ws posing.

srry, I have the feeling this is not exactly rules interpretaation thread any more...maybe we should ask Mod to move this to Secret history or something like that?

Considering that rules should reflect the setting, I still consider this a rules discussion. Let's take the Rocket Scatter thread as an example: If rockets are impossible to hit with, then only madmen and idiots will be seen using them in my games. The rules have an impact on the interpretation of the setting.

[Sichr]

OK. so for your original question...
Search sounds too good
even a picture or hologram, that mage have seen before, should be enought to begin the search with
Physical image is enought, because it is possible to seek things that have no astral reflection
What is even more crazy: You never know, what hits you, because Search doesn`t establish material link with target so if it is seek and destroy task, target will
...if not perceiving astrally and prepared or if he ddidnt posess some metamagic or Adept power like Magic sense...
...be almost always catched with surprise.

[Sichr]

And more to it: When you tell your guardian spirit:
Bring me the head of this motherfucker:
Guardian would almost for sure use Search power to find the target, and it wont be even considered Service, because the service would be the whole hunt.

[Tsuzua]

And more to it: When you tell your guardian spirit:
Bring me the head of this motherfucker:
Guardian would almost for sure use Search power to find the target, and it wont be even considered Service, because the service would be the whole hunt.

While it doesn't really change the argument one way or another, Guardian is the only spirit type that can't get search.  This does suggest that search for the most part is quite an universal ability among spirits.

[nifoc]

I got a solution to the Search problem on page 1 of this thread. I.e. just use the rules penalizing or limiting the number of rolls.

Regarding the creation of traditions, there is not a single reference that I can find to when any of the traditions were established, the closest is the Abilene incident, which is the first reference to magical usage. The Sixth World Almanac does mention that the University of Prague is focusing on cross-traditional approaches, suggesting that such a thing IS possible. SM also diescribes the "self-taught magician" as being possible, the magician practising magic without a tradition, developing one as he goes along. It gives no indication of how he chooses the types of spirit or how he resists Drain however, apparently the author forgot.

So now that we have established that it IS possible to create a tradition in the setting, the interesting part becomes how does the magician choose the spirits being summoned? Furthermore, why does he limit himself to only certain groups of spirits?

[nifoc]

I got a solution to the Search problem on page 1 of this thread. I.e. just use the rules penalizing or limiting the number of rolls.

You mean Quick extended test?

No, p. 64 of SR4A suggest either limiting the number of tests or imposing a cumulative penalty of 1 dice/roll.