[Shinobi Killfist]

I thought I had. It's simple, you can take multiple levels of critical strike. 3 levels of critical strike for the stabby stabby, go for it. 6 levels of critical strike unarmed go for it. Strength is still heavily rewarded as it is a good stat for limits, damage and it's a separate resource. People can go light on strength and still kick ass but at a heavy cost in magic, or they can go heavy in just strength or both if they want to take out cars. After playing with it for months I am considering dropping the cost as you see people dropping half their magic just to get to a decent chance to one shot goons.

It allows a much wider range of character design for the same butt kicking concept. It came up thanks to the brawler archetype that one of my players based his character on. Once it became clear that brawling was one of the worst options for the brawler I felt something should be done. In error the brawler had 2 levels in the main book and it didn't break things. Maybe in the extreme it breaks, but most people don't play there outside forum hypotheticals.

[Lucean]

And did you make it cost 0.25PP as in SR4 or 0.5PP as is now?
Why should you be able to augment your punches better then your cutting/mauling/slicing?

I think your houserule devalues armed adepts. They already have the disadvantage of needing their weapon with them. And now it should be possible to hit as hard with better AP than a Katana while maintaining higher accuracy?

[Reaver]

He's applying critical strike to both armed and unarmed attacks.

[Lucean]

But at different level caps, 3 for armed and 6 for unarmed, so essentially the difference in bonus from normal unarmed to a sword/katana.

[Reaver]

I don't think so.... i think those where just random numbers... they could have just as easily been 6 and 6, or 1 and 5, or 5 and 4....

What he is trying to say is that removing the cap of 1 to critical strike is not a game breaker.

[Reaver]

Here's an experiment for you all:

Build 9 charcaters,

1 mundane human/troll/elf melee combat build with NO augmentations (no magic, bioware, or cyber.

1 mundane augmented (cyber and bio) human/troll/elf melee combat build.

1 physical adept human/troll/elf melee combat build.

Don't care what system you use, just keep it consistant.

[Lucean]

What he is trying to say is that removing the cap of 1 to critical strike is not a game breaker.

But there are a lot of readers not convinced that this would be neccessary at all.

[Reaver]

But there are a lot of readers not convinced that this would be neccessary at all.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing. Just clarifying what I believe his stance to be. (And, yes, I could be wrong.)

Other then that, I have weighed in on this argument before, and nothing has really changed since then. (but it's better drama then my life right now, or what is on TV, so....)

[Shinobi Killfist]

But there are a lot of readers not convinced that this would be neccessary at all.

There are a lot of forum goers on the d&d boards that are convinced magic classes should inherently be superior to martial classes. Or I other words a lot people believe a lot of things. And reaver had what I meant correct. Te only limit is the standard no more ranks than your magic attribute.

The beauty of dropping the limit is let's say you are making a character and you don't think its necessary for your design. Well great only take one level, but bob who was shooting more for internal magic power punching holes in people while still being a gangly teen picked on by cobra Kai can keep his strength at 3 and take 6 levels in critical strike.

Both sides can make the characters they want. So unless fun is had by making sure others don't have fun multiple levels works fairly well.

Also no I have not dropped it to .25 yet. I'm thinking about it. It's falling in one of those .25 might be too cheap yet I think .5 is too expensive points. I'm considering multiple options like a pre-req for multiple levels or a higher cost on the first point so the multiple levels could drop to .25 but keep the overall cost fair. They really should of moved to .1 variations in cost, .25 is too large of a swing.

I'd probably drop the cost of improved attribute to .5 first. It really is way too expensive at 1.

[Novocrane]

So unless fun is had by making sure others don't have fun, multiple levels works fairly well

You aren't going to win anyone over by telling them the alternative is that they're a giant Johnson.

[Lucean]

But there are a lot of readers not convinced that this would be neccessary at all.

There are a lot of forum goers on the d&d boards that are convinced magic classes should inherently be superior to martial classes. Or I other words a lot people believe a lot of things. And reaver had what I meant correct. Te only limit is the standard no more ranks than your magic attribute.

The beauty of dropping the limit is let's say you are making a character and you don't think its necessary for your design. Well great only take one level, but bob who was shooting more for internal magic power punching holes in people while still being a gangly teen picked on by cobra Kai can keep his strength at 3 and take 6 levels in critical strike.

Both sides can make the characters they want. So unless fun is had by making sure others don't have fun multiple levels works fairly well.

Also no I have not dropped it to .25 yet. I'm thinking about it. It's falling in one of those .25 might be too cheap yet I think .5 is too expensive points. I'm considering multiple options like a pre-req for multiple levels or a higher cost on the first point so the multiple levels could drop to .25 but keep the overall cost fair. They really should of moved to .1 variations in cost, .25 is too large of a swing.

I'd probably drop the cost of improved attribute to .5 first. It really is way too expensive at 1.

Just don't neglect the mundane perspective.
+1 unarmed damage starts by costing you 0.5 Essence while increasing your toughness with bone lacings and has an availability of 16 at the standard grade maximum
muscle augmentation got really expensive at 31,000 ¥ per point and also costs 0.2 points of Essence per point while getting to availability 20 for standard grade

And all this hassle while adepts just invest some PP or fractions thereof. Do you have mundane melee characters in your group(s)?

[Leevizer]

Just don't neglect the mundane perspective.
+1 unarmed damage starts by costing you 0.5 Essence while increasing your toughness with bone lacings and has an availability of 16 at the standard grade maximum
muscle augmentation got really expensive at 31,000 ¥ per point and also costs 0.2 points of Essence per point while getting to availability 20 for standard grade

And all this hassle while adepts just invest some PP or fractions thereof. Do you have mundane melee characters in your group(s)?

I made one, actually, kind of like Jacket from Hotline Miami. Mundane human. Made it work with taking both Kamikaze and Jazz, and used muscle replacement 3 for 3,75 essence. Initiative of 11+5d6, Melee dicepool of 14 and hits for 12P base damage with a baseball bat.

If we were to turn him into an unarmed character, I'd go with Aluminum bone lacing or a cyberspur.

Also, he has an estimated lifespan is six months before addictions kill him off.

[Herr Brackhaus]

I made one, actually, kind of like Jacket from Hotline Miami. Mundane human. Made it work with taking both Kamikaze and Jazz, and used muscle replacement 3 for 3,75 essence. Initiative of 11+5d6, Melee dicepool of 14 and hits for 12P base damage with a baseball bat.

If we were to turn him into an unarmed character, I'd go with Aluminum bone lacing or a cyberspur.

Also, he has an estimated lifespan is six months before addictions kill him off.

Never mind addictions killing him off; Kamikaze and Jazz both have an effect on Initiative dice and physical limit, which means you have to use the rules for Overdosing.

Too much of anything can hurt you, or even kill you. Whenever you take a substance while you’re already on that substance or one that has a shared effect (like the way cram and novacoke both affect Reaction), you take Stun damage with a DV equal to the sum of the Addiction Ratings of the overlapping drugs, resisted with Body + Willpower.

Kamikaze has an Addiction Rating of 9 while Jazz has an Addiction Rating of 8. That means you're resisting 17 Stun Damage before you even get into combat. You might be able to remain conscious, but you'll have one hell of a headache.

Drugs are bad, mmmmkay?

[Leevizer]

I made one, actually, kind of like Jacket from Hotline Miami. Mundane human. Made it work with taking both Kamikaze and Jazz, and used muscle replacement 3 for 3,75 essence. Initiative of 11+5d6, Melee dicepool of 14 and hits for 12P base damage with a baseball bat.

If we were to turn him into an unarmed character, I'd go with Aluminum bone lacing or a cyberspur.

Also, he has an estimated lifespan is six months before addictions kill him off.

Never mind addictions killing him off; Kamikaze and Jazz both have an effect on Initiative dice and physical limit, which means you have to use the rules for Overdosing.

Too much of anything can hurt you, or even kill you. Whenever you take a substance while you’re already on that substance or one that has a shared effect (like the way cram and novacoke both affect Reaction), you take Stun damage with a DV equal to the sum of the Addiction Ratings of the overlapping drugs, resisted with Body + Willpower.

Kamikaze has an Addiction Rating of 9 while Jazz has an Addiction Rating of 8. That means you're resisting 17 Stun Damage before you even get into combat. You might be able to remain conscious, but you'll have one hell of a headache.

Drugs are bad, mmmmkay?

Oh, nice, I missed that part. Well, I'll need to work around with it a bit, then. I'm thinking of either taking one of the drugs out or taking the more fun approach of buying a Pain Editor.

[Shinobi Killfist]

But there are a lot of readers not convinced that this would be neccessary at all.

There are a lot of forum goers on the d&d boards that are convinced magic classes should inherently be superior to martial classes. Or I other words a lot people believe a lot of things. And reaver had what I meant correct. Te only limit is the standard no more ranks than your magic attribute.

The beauty of dropping the limit is let's say you are making a character and you don't think its necessary for your design. Well great only take one level, but bob who was shooting more for internal magic power punching holes in people while still being a gangly teen picked on by cobra Kai can keep his strength at 3 and take 6 levels in critical strike.

Both sides can make the characters they want. So unless fun is had by making sure others don't have fun multiple levels works fairly well.

Also no I have not dropped it to .25 yet. I'm thinking about it. It's falling in one of those .25 might be too cheap yet I think .5 is too expensive points. I'm considering multiple options like a pre-req for multiple levels or a higher cost on the first point so the multiple levels could drop to .25 but keep the overall cost fair. They really should of moved to .1 variations in cost, .25 is too large of a swing.

I'd probably drop the cost of improved attribute to .5 first. It really is way too expensive at 1.

Just don't neglect the mundane perspective.
+1 unarmed damage starts by costing you 0.5 Essence while increasing your toughness with bone lacings and has an availability of 16 at the standard grade maximum
muscle augmentation got really expensive at 31,000 ¥ per point and also costs 0.2 points of Essence per point while getting to availability 20 for standard grade

And all this hassle while adepts just invest some PP or fractions thereof. Do you have mundane melee characters in your group(s)?

Sure. It's still cheaper and easier to get some level of melee mundane character than melee adept.(bone density is cheap in nuyen and essence for what it gives,a spur is a nice choice as well) Adepts just have a higher cap. Thing is I feel this is more an adepts gimmick so if they are better at it so be it. Adepts don't get implanted grenade launchers, attribute boosts are more expensive(I think maybe by too far as it overly motivates the bio-adept), etc. there are some things Mundanes do better there are some adepts do, and augmented Magic types do it better than both which I hate but don't have a fix for.