[DeathStrobe]

Okay, so I have some free time between projects, so I started to work on my javascript character generator again, and was starting to add vision mods. Image scope is a vision device, which is also a weapon mod, so I went back to look at weapon mods. I was annoyed that run and gun didn't clear up what was integral and what is not, but maybe it did.

p50

4) Internal to the weapon, meaning it is built into the weapon and integral to its systems

Some of the weapons description clearly indicates if a mod that comes with a weapon has it placed. And those are not internal, weapon mods, so they must not be integral.

So something like the Enfield AS-7, very clearly says it has a top mounted barrel laser sight. Which is clearly and obviously NOT internal, so not integral. This also means you can't put an external smartgun system or image scope on top of it, because it already has a laser sight eating up that slot.

However, this also runs in to the problem of the Ares Light Fire 75 which costs way more then the Ares Light Fire 70 while having a silencer that is both described as using up the barrel slot while at the very end of the description is said to be integral. These two statements clearly contradict each other, but the only logical explanation is that the 75's silencer is integral while the 70's is not. Which means that 75 can actually take one more mod on to the barrel slot.

Anyway, there is a ton of weirdness with weapon mods. But I am thinking that if the description says a weapon mod that comes with a weapon, is on a slot, it is not integral and actually does eat up that slot.

[Furious Trope]

I thought it said somewhere pre-equipped modifications don't count as taking up slots.

Like, the Enfield AS-7's laser sight is built in  near the top of the barrel, not taking up the top mount.

[Mithlas]

I was annoyed that run and gun didn't clear up what was integral and what is not, but maybe it did.

p50

4) Internal to the weapon, meaning it is built into the weapon and integral to its systems

Some of the weapons description clearly indicates if a mod that comes with a weapon has it placed. And those are not internal, weapon mods, so they must not be integral.

So something like the Enfield AS-7, very clearly says it has a top mounted barrel laser sight. Which is clearly and obviously NOT internal, so not integral.

The problem is...depending on how you design a weapon, you can can have certain attachments (particularly small ones) that are innate to the basic design of the weapon (integral) that do not necessarily preclude other attachments (such as an imaging scope) from also being attached. I have seen numerous examples of this in real life with carbines that have a laser sight and an optical gunsight both built or affixed (respectively) to the top of the barrel. Think of it in the laser/optical sight example as a lasersight recessed into the upper barrel housing while the optical sight is bolted to the top as many upper-receiver attachments are. In real life you can also attach things to the left and right sides of the barrel, as was an option with most assault rifles in Metal Gear Solid.

I can't say anything about weapons in Run & Gun as nobody in my group has that yet and my players asking to stay in 4th edition has not inclined me to invest my extremely limited budget towards books the local shops don't stock yet.

I thought it said somewhere pre-equipped modifications don't count as taking up slots.

This is my understanding, so unless the description says otherwise I interpret modifications described as being a base part of the weapon as "a basic part of it before modifications from the player take effect" in much the same way as vehicles are with modifications like GridLink (which are default to any non-obsolescent vehicles to my understanding). Granted, vehicles have flexible capacity and weapons tend to have more precisely set "slots" where they can take many upgrades and vehicles do not generally have this restriction.

[Kincaid]

I thought it said somewhere pre-equipped modifications don't count as taking up slots.

Like, the Enfield AS-7's laser sight is built in  near the top of the barrel, not taking up the top mount.

I asked the same question quite a bit a few months ago and this is the answer I got.  It's weird and counter-intuitive, but there you have it.  This was before R&G, but I assume the same holds true for the Internal slot.

[DeathStrobe]

I thought it said somewhere pre-equipped modifications don't count as taking up slots.

Like, the Enfield AS-7's laser sight is built in  near the top of the barrel, not taking up the top mount.

But I think Run and Gun redefined what integral means. Which means that is no longer the case. Which is now the problem.

[SlowDeck]

The slot system from Run and Gun is kinda one of those systems where, from what I've see, we either need a clarification on it or house rules to make it work. Especially when you get into things such as improved range finders, which have their allowed locations relative to where another weapon mod is located, or gecko grip, which simply don't make any sense for the slot they take up.

[Namikaze]

The slot system from Run and Gun is kinda one of those systems where, from what I've see, we either need a clarification on it or house rules to make it work. Especially when you get into things such as improved range finders, which have their allowed locations relative to where another weapon mod is located, or gecko grip, which simply don't make any sense for the slot they take up.

I'm not a fan of the idea that grips and stocks are the same slot.  IMO, grips are grips, and stocks are stocks.  But maybe the point of this was to give some choice in either category because as of right now, there's not much choice in grips or in stocks.  Pile them together and the choices start to become more varied.  Personally, I'd rather see grips and stocks be separated, and have more options for both categories.

Folding stock, rigid stock, padded stock, cheek stock (for sniper rifles).  Those are just some quick ones I could come up with.  Not a lot of variety in effect there, though.  Really it might as well just be folding and rigid. 

For grips, there's personalized, gecko, safety (sends a shock or whatnot into the hand), bipod grips...  that's about it.  Not a lot of variety there either.

The only way I can think of to make it better is to offer some variant values for variant brands and such.  That's getting into the realm of Gun H(e)aven 4 though.  Oooh - is there a Gun H(e)aven 4 coming out?

[Lobo]

I believe the problem is that there is a difference between integral and internal.

To me, for what it is worth, integral means that you can't remove it - but doesn't actually mean that it takes up the internal spot.

For example: the Ares Crusader MP has a "integral barrel-mounted gas-vent 2 recoil compensation system"

So integral and internal are not the same thing.

To me, this means that you can't just take the gas vent 2 off of the Crusader and slip on a suppressor - the barrel mount is used up by the integral gas vent 2.

Similarly, they Steyr TMP has a "built-in top-mounted laser sight." - to me, this means that you can't remove, and it occupies the top mount - so integral, but not internal.

Now, if it doesn't specify a mounting, then an integral item could be internal, and in many cases, has to be.   For instance, the Ingram Smartgun, comes with a gas vent 2 (barrel mount), a smartgun system (top mount) and an integral sound suppressor - which in this case must be the internal mount, since the barrel mount is occupied.

[Lobo]

However, this also runs in to the problem of the Ares Light Fire 75 which costs way more then the Ares Light Fire 70 while having a silencer that is both described as using up the barrel slot while at the very end of the description is said to be integral. These two statements clearly contradict each other, but the only logical explanation is that the 75's silencer is integral while the 70's is not. Which means that 75 can actually take one more mod on to the barrel slot.

The Light Fire 75 and the 70 are almost the same price when you get down to it.

Light Fire 75 1250 nuyen.  Comes with a "smartgun system" - which could either be top mounted, or part of the gun and take up the internal slot, hard to say, and integral barrel mounted silencer.

Light Fire 70 200 nuyen.  Buying the silencer costs 750.  Adding a smartgun system is 200.  Total cost=1150.

By the way, the idea that all mods that are pre-equipped don't take up slots is just stupid.  I think it just is an easy way for them to avoid having to proof-read every weapon to see if they actually got the number of slots correct.  Otherwise why bother saying things like "integral" or "top mounted" or "barrel mounted" since if none of the pre-equipped add ons took up slots, those would be completely superfluous, as they don't affect what you can add to the weapon.

[ZeConster]

The accessory and mod rules were poorly written.

[DeathStrobe]

I believe the problem is that there is a difference between integral and internal.

To me, for what it is worth, integral means that you can't remove it - but doesn't actually mean that it takes up the internal spot.

For example: the Ares Crusader MP has a "integral barrel-mounted gas-vent 2 recoil compensation system"

So integral and internal are not the same thing.

To me, this means that you can't just take the gas vent 2 off of the Crusader and slip on a suppressor - the barrel mount is used up by the integral gas vent 2.

Similarly, they Steyr TMP has a "built-in top-mounted laser sight." - to me, this means that you can't remove, and it occupies the top mount - so integral, but not internal.

Now, if it doesn't specify a mounting, then an integral item could be internal, and in many cases, has to be.   For instance, the Ingram Smartgun, comes with a gas vent 2 (barrel mount), a smartgun system (top mount) and an integral sound suppressor - which in this case must be the internal mount, since the barrel mount is occupied.

That makes a lot of sense, and I think that maybe RAW and RAI. Unless someone can come up with some good counter points, I'm going to assume this is the case and make Omae reflect this, when I get a chance to.

[Michael Chandra]

Man, can't wait until Run&Gun is in HeroLab.

[Kincaid]

Man, can't wait until Run&Gun is in HeroLab.

I'm only vaguely familiar with HeroLab.  Is it considered reflective of design intent?

[Michael Chandra]

Not entirely, but things that the developers leave up for "figure it out" grabs for us, must be spelled out for the system, so there's some chances we'll get things clarified indirectly through it, such as this.

Honestly, on some of the weird stuff I just am going to go lazy and probably follow HL.

[Zar]

What I do is I look up an image of the weapon.  Does it look like it's default mods are internal?  If not then what slots are they taking up?  While the book could have been more clear, I do not see this as requiring others to say whether something is the case or not.