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Summoning horribly overpowered?

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ZeConster

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« Reply #15 on: <12-16-13/2333:44> »
You seem to think that it is ok for a single skill to be equal to the output of 2 street samurais.
"Two properly equipped street samurai can take your 'nuke' spirit out in a single turn" does not equal what you apparently think I said.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #16 on: <12-16-13/2336:05> »
Spirits are sentient NPCs, much like that Fixer, Armorer or Cabbie that gets taken as a contact.

Spirits want to be in the world, but if the person trying to call them is known (and they do know) to treat his spirit allies as "pocket nukes" or otherwise disposable on a regular basis, they are going to be very Cross. Not only will they use their own luck to resist being in that butt-monkey's service, but should they still not resist, they'll fight every order and/or interpret the orders very literally (to the point where "attack that enemy" means attacking that enemy once with it's lightest attack).

This is not "story cheese", it is plainly and simply how spirits function in the setting of the game. There aren't mechanics for all of it because it simply isn't needed.

Hell, the Force 4 spirit that you want to see be the norm would be utterly annihilated by the Awakened character I built using only his sword right out of creation, and the character isn't even what would be called "optimal" on these boards. An "optimal" Street Sam would probably one shot it.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #17 on: <12-17-13/0010:12> »
Hell, the Force 4 spirit that you want to see be the norm would be utterly annihilated by the Awakened character I built using only his sword right out of creation, and the character isn't even what would be called "optimal" on these boards. An "optimal" Street Sam would probably one shot it.
Lessee...
Agility 6, Longarms 6, sniper rifle specialization, wireless smartgun system connected to 'ware smartlink, SA burst with an Ares Desert Strike: 16 attack dice versus 14 dodge dice, spend a point of Edge on Push the Limit (giving an average of 8 hits assuming Edge 4): APDS rounds with 2 net hits make that 15P/-8, resulting in 15P versus Body 4 and Hardened Armor 4: 2 free hits turn that into 13P versus 8 soak dice. The actual outcome will vary, but there's a decent chance of a one-shot, and if you use an Adept with some 'ware and the Improved Ability (Longarms) and Improved Physical Attribute (Agility) powers, that becomes even more likely.
And of course, like A4BG indicated, an Adept with 8 Strength and a Katana Weapon Focus would only need a single net hit: 12P/-3 that bypasses Immunity to Normal Weapons would only leave the Spirit with [Body] (so 4) damage resist dice, on which it would need to score 3 hits to not be one-shotted.

Reaver

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« Reply #18 on: <12-17-13/0017:18> »
*sigh*

yet an other "OMG NERF SPIRITS NOW" post?



well, it is December.... almost exactly 4 weeks since the last one....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

acolyte99

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« Reply #19 on: <12-17-13/0212:18> »
Just to point out:
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that is doubly true if the character can just cast heal on itself after summoning this monster (speaking of which, can one heal the drain of spells with the heal spell?).

No, magical drain can only be healed by natural healing.  This might have a small part why you feel summoning is overpowered.
If you could heal your physical drain with the heal spell and if spirits with more force than the summoner's magic couldn't use Edge to resist, I would also say it's overpowered.
But the risk, that the drain from a bad roll when the spirit rolled quite well will stay for days, is high enough for me, but as always YMMV.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #20 on: <12-17-13/0259:21> »
*sigh*

yet an other "OMG NERF SPIRITS NOW" post?



well, it is December.... almost exactly 4 weeks since the last one....

My sentiments exactly, man. *hangs head*

Beer? Maybe that'll make it more bearable.
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Xenon

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« Reply #21 on: <12-17-13/0315:41> »
Yes summon is very powerful in SR5 (even if others try to think up reasons why it isn't). You get a lot more bang for the drain using summon than regular combat spells.

Combined with astral projection (another ability people will tell you is not powerful by the way) you wreck havoc on an entire installation even from across the continent with limited risk - unless GM goes out of his way to stop you with using edge on summoning (where did that idea come from anyway??) and astral patrolling magicians that he would not have used against your runners if it wasn't for you using astral projection and summoning spirits.

According to fluff shamans normally use summons with care.  As If they are friend or family. Hermetic however. ... ;)




Having said that. Street samurai get pretty dangerous if they use grenades. Spirits are just the awakened equivalent. Shrug.
« Last Edit: <12-17-13/0323:28> by Xenon »

Beaumis

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« Reply #22 on: <12-17-13/0338:59> »
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Part of the problem might be my paradigm. I don't think it is reasonable for a single skill to recreate the capability of multiple combat focused characters in the group, ever, under any situation.
It's not a single skill. Its a priority of at least D, a varying amount of special attribute points, skill and attribute points to offset drain and an entire way of life. You are sidelining the cost of summoning.

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So, the only balance is another magician? That seems ok to you?
Magic has and always will be the great equalizer in Shadowrun. Its the premise of the game. Only magic counters magic effectively. Its been that way for 20 years. If you dislike that premise, you are free to change it as a GM, but then you are changing the fundamental setting of Shadowrun.

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I don't think it is reasonable for a single skill to recreate the capability of multiple combat focused characters in the group, ever, under any situation.
The devs agree with you. Which is why spirits are NPCs controlled by the GM. Just like contacts aren't vending machines for gear, spirits aren't pocket nukes. There are 20 years worth of stories and a few hundred pages worth of setting in SR5 alone that all point to one inescapable fact: Shadowrun is balanced by its setting as much as it is by its rules. If you play any one element to ignore that concept, your game balance will run foul. There is no difference between a spirit summoner and a grenade lobbing sam in milspec armor if you ignore the setting that keeps them from going over the top.

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I will have to look at binding eventually. It sounds like I am going to have to rewrite summoning to be ok with it at any table I ever run (or just ban it outright, the way the GM I am currently playing with has done).
No offense, but this is where you disqualify yourself from a discussion about the powerlevel of summoning. You are looking at a fringe case with an incomplete understanding of the rules, out of the context of the intent of the game.

You are basically saying, that you haven't looked at speed limits and their legal implications yet, but the fact that anyone can drive around at 160/mph is way overpowered.


None is disputing that summoning is a powerful ability. That's why you pay a priority to just to be able to learn it, leave alone master it. But you are blowing it's power way out of proportion and you are letting yourself be guided by fear. If you GM, you control the spirits. If you play, your GM controls the spirits. When was the last time an NPC on your side (as a player) was played exactly the way you wanted it to be?

Godwyn

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« Reply #23 on: <12-17-13/0416:56> »
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So, the only balance is another magician? That seems ok to you?
Magic has and always will be the great equalizer in Shadowrun. Its the premise of the game. Only magic counters magic effectively. Its been that way for 20 years. If you dislike that premise, you are free to change it as a GM, but then you are changing the fundamental setting of Shadowrun.

See, the problem is that if only magic counters magic, and magic counters tech, then it is not an equalizer, it is superior, unless tech has important things only it can do.  And I think that tension is a  more fundamental principle than magic superiority.  Magic is extremely powerful, as are individuals that wield it, but it is not the superior force on the planet any more.       

Which I think is still true in character generation, but  I don't have a SR5 game past about 50 karma yet, so I can't say how it plays out at high karma levels. So far, none of the awakened outshine the tech people completely.  But if the game does become MagicRun, then yes, it is one I will walk away from.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #24 on: <12-17-13/0512:13> »
Only magic counters special spells. I find my Battle Rifle is the perfect counter to 'magic' and with magic I mean a Force 6 Blizzard Spirit that engulfed Kane and went down in a single Edged Short Burst.

As for Spirits under GM control: ZeConster here had a big fright when he asked his Spirit to talk to 'Neil the Ork Barbarian' and the Spirit addressed the guy as "puny mortal". The Spirit did exactly what he had asked: Talk to the guy and explain the situation. The Spirit did that, and decided to have a bit of fun with it by acting in-character as well. Fortunately it went over well and they made it to the actual negotiation without a big fight, but I easily could have ruled that he'd have to show up himself and make an Etiquette test to make amends (he actually had to do that later due to someone else saying something in a wrong manner).

Anyway, I'll be blunt: Summoning is only overpowered if the GM can't handle it. If they can't, then yes, ban it. You probably should just go and ban Magicians altogether, because the entire class is one that requires handling.



If instead you want to know how to balance it, here's some simple tricks to use:

1: Take control of any Spirit, do NOT let the PC decide what the Spirit does. A Spirit is an NPC, the only way for the player to decide exactly what the Spirit does is spending a Service on it. The Spirit might even have a quirk, take for example the Spirit of Man noted above that decided to act in-character and held a speech about The Forces Of Darkness that govern the land (read: the government).

2: Do NOT allow control over what Powers the Spirit uses in Combat. The Powers used in Combat do not cost a Service, but the Spirit will decide for themselves what Powers they use. If the player wants a specific Power, it will either be treated as a mere suggestion (and possibly ignored) or require a Service.

3: Track how someone treats their Spirits and see whether the Spirit will even like the current job. If the Spirit doesn't like the job, they'll ignore suggestions. If they're treated with respect and not played out as cannon fodder, they will likely follow the suggestions, if they're reasonable.

4: If someone regularly mistreats Spirits, or he is currently Oversummoning, have the Spirit Push The Limit. This gives more hits on average than Second Chance and also has more dangerous peak potential. It is a big balancing factor against Oversummoning and it also helps limit the services of someone who treats Spirits as mere cannon fodder.

5: Furthermore, realize that properly-armed opponents can still take on a Spirit quite decently. APDS is VERY powerful against Spirits, even moreso than against normal armor. So if it's the ammunition of choice, a Spirit will still take damage. Especially if they exhaust its dodge pool and use bursts.
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Beaumis

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« Reply #25 on: <12-17-13/0640:11> »
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See, the problem is that if only magic counters magic, and magic counters tech, then it is not an equalizer, it is superior, unless tech has important things only it can do.  And I think that tension is a  more fundamental principle than magic superiority.  Magic is extremely powerful, as are individuals that wield it, but it is not the superior force on the planet any more.       
Tech has a lot of things magic can't do. It does multitasking a lot better (raising many stats simultaneously), it can teach people things they never once though of (skillwires, knowsofts etc), it can mass produce weapons and armor in levels and grades only the most powerful of ritual groups can think of (Casting a F12 armor spell isn't easy, let alone tank armor). That's not even touching the matrix and its capabilities, an entire territory magic will never touch on. And unlike technology, magic always comes with the immediate cost of drain.

The thing is that magic synergizes with technology, but that goes both ways, so it's hardly an argument against magic. Neither is have and have not, as that is always unbalanced.

What makes magic an equalizer is that it cannot be manufactured. The corps will have exactly as many mages as they can hire and their power will be derived from the very same training as the shadowrunning mage. You cannot fast track mages by giving them access to better guns, armor etc. Manufacturing foci is just as hard for corp mages as it is for others, the same goes for binding. Drain really is where it is at though. No amount of power, influence or money will make a corp mage throw bigger fireballs and stay awake/ alive any better than a shadowrunner. That is always determined by their inborn abilities. (ignoring the cerebral booster, which is available to both)

The only advantage the corps have in regards to magic is that they can afford to hire more mages (up to what the market will give them, which is little) and can have them specialize in their fields, just like they do with mundane people working the assembly line. The shadowrunning mage on the other hand has to branch out at least a little to survive in the shadows. At the end of the day however, he can build a network that eventually can end up equal to the corps assembly of mages. Sometimes more powerful, because shadowrunners are a lot less risk averse than the average corp mage is.

I never made a claim to magic superiority. I stated that magic counters magic better than technology does. Just like technology counters technology better than magic does. A mage has precious few options to stop a decker from bricking his cybereyes and a rigger with a few drones will eat most mages for breakfast. Bullets hurt mages just as bad as they do others, often more because mages tend to lack combat augmentations that help mitigate holes in your chest.

Contrary to popular opinion, most mages have no idea how to throw fireballs and it never once occured to them to order a spirit to do combat for them. They are scientists, researchers, doctors, entertainers, special effect people, con men, hustlers, talismongers, merchants, detectives etc. The percentage of militant mages is pretty small, just as the percentage of the awakened among humanity is pretty small. Spirits and Spells above force 3 are freaking rare. A force 8 spirit is about as common as seeing you local police contractor deploying his riot tanks. It happens yes, but when it does, everyone knows the shit has or is about to hit the fan.

Compare the damage potential of a Force 4 spirit to a Ruger 100 Sniper Rifle. A weapon with an availability of 4R. That is what the average corp mages is trained and expected to deal with. If you want a comparison of the F8 spirit, have a look at the Ranger Arms with APDS ammo or high explosive grenades. The differences aren't that big. Add the drain for the spirit and the fact that he bails out the second your services are gone and you'll see why most mages stick to normal force spirits (3-6) and don't give the corps a reason to deploy their heavy response teams. Those guys usually come in vehicles that are essentially tanks.
« Last Edit: <12-17-13/0642:50> by Beaumis »

Cyber-Dave

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« Reply #26 on: <12-17-13/1432:15> »
So, after listening to the counter arguments, and reading over the rules in more details, I have concluded that spirits are still overpowered. I believe that the group of people who think they are balanced are wrong. My original nerf, however, might have been a little overboard. I believe that the following two changes would make spirits acceptable at my table:

•   Summoning: Spirits resist being summoned with a dice pool equal to the spirit’s Force x2. Spirits resist being bound with a dice pool equal to the spirit’s Force x3.
Side note:  Spirits cannot use edge to resist being summoned.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #27 on: <12-17-13/1441:23> »
Considering that you're dismissing how spirits work in and interact with the setting (which is a big part of the balancing factor) as "story cheese". The problem still lies in your thought process.

Just use what Chandra said with the exception of the over-summoning part and things will work out just fine.
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Cyber-Dave

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« Reply #28 on: <12-17-13/1447:40> »
Considering that you're dismissing how spirits work in and interact with the setting (which is a big part of the balancing factor) as "story cheese". The problem still lies in your thought process.

Just use what Chandra said with the exception of the over-summoning part and things will work out just fine.

I respect that you believe that. I, however, disagree. I think the problem is in YOUR thought process. I believe that the group of people who believe that summoning is not overpowered are so used to overpowered summing, and so used to shadowrun, that they have come to justify the imbalance instead of addressing it. (This, to me, resembles the players who justify overpowered magic in Dungeons and Dragons.) I also think you guys are ignoring other issues. My GM has brought up some very good points after I had him read this thread. This is what he wrote to me in an e-mail:

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It's not just the potential damage output and defences of spirits that makes them dangerous their mobility is a huge edge. The posters don't take into a account that spirits clan fly invisible through astral space at near light speeds and then manifest themselves at where their target happens to be. Incoming enemy gunship- no problem have the fire elemental manifest in the cockpit. Enemy guards have cover in a bunker- again no problem. Of course there are counter measures (like always having an elemental or two traveling with your choppers or having a mage in astral to back them up, having astral barriers protect your bunkers etc…), but then you risk getting into a nasty arms race that I think can easily leave other PCs out in the cold. Furthermore using such counter measures requires additional rules subsets to constantly be in play that can make an already complex game even more complicated.

I suppose if you strictly played shadowrun and got to know the system inside out it probably wouldn't be so bad, but when you run it on a more occasional basis and don't have time to commit to learning each rule subsystem inside out, toning back certain elements makes sense.

I agree with him. With that being said, I continue to believe that some sort of house rule needs to be implemented to tone down summoning. Force x2 to resist summoning and Force x3 to resist binding (without the edge resist cheese) seems to be the best solution for our tastes.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #29 on: <12-17-13/1454:50> »
You do realize that if a spirit goes beyond a certain distance away (can't recall the exact distance at the moment, but it's not that far), the service it's on becomes a remote service burning all further services (no matter how many are left), right? The juice is not worth the squeeze on that.
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