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[SR5] Bound Spirits and number active at once

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Alchemyst

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« Reply #30 on: <11-27-13/0158:22> »
RAW is unclear as to what exactly is the correct interpretation. Wording really supports both sides and this is definitely added to the long list of what needs official ruling.

However I would personally interpret it as, commanding the spirit to use a power in combat would not cost an extra service. My reasoning is that I find it silly that a mage in combat may yell, "Flamethrower that guy!" the spirit would then respond, "No, you are out of services, that power is not part of me helping you in combat," and then proceed to flamethrower the guy anyways because the GM decided that it would tactically be the smart choice for the spirit to do. There is no, "RAW is this, you are wrong!" Clarification is needed for sure.

Beaumis

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« Reply #31 on: <11-27-13/0427:57> »
Note I'm trying something new here. Rules citations are blue, poster's comments are normal quotes.

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No, you are reading that wrong. Plus - what the point of the summoner being able to mentally communicate with the spirit during combat if he can't direct him to do something.
To be technical, the summoner does not communicate mentally with the spirit. Its the other way around. While most GMs handwave this to mean a two way link, the rules are quite clear that it is one way. The summoner only knows when a spirit is disrupted because of the loss of the link. The spirit can keep this link open to receive orders, but it is born from the spirits powers, not the magicians. So technically, a spirit can chose not to listen by closing the link, forcing the magician to talk.

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A spirit doesn’t have to speak to his summoner out loud. It can communicate telepathically with the summoner, even from astral space, so it doesn’t even have to manifest to receive orders  or make reports. This link allows for communication over a distance but does not extend to the metaplanes, nor does it allow any other visual or audio connection. With this link, a summoner knows when a spirit he has summoned has been disrupted, as he will feel the loss of the link.
(P. 302 Core)

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Power Use is a completely separate service from Combat - which is why the clarification is there. Why give a Spirit of Man a fireball spell if you can't tell it to cast the spell? Or Heal? Or whatever.
A few things here. First RAW:

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Services are how we measure how helpful a spirit is willing (or required) to be to you. A service is a single task that you request (or demand) from a spirit.
(P. 302 Core)

This passage is followed by the list of unbound and bound services. These lists are exhaustive, meaning there are no other services than these. Among these is the "Power Use" service, which reads as follows:
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Power use: You can have a spirit use one of its powers on a target or targets of your choosing. If the power is sustained, it counts as one service no matter how long it’s sustained. If the spirit uses a power as part of another task (often in combat), then the power use doesn’t count as a separate service.
(P. 302 Core)
(Emphasis mine) The service says very clearly that it counts as a service, by virtue of being part of the list. It goes on to state that if the spirit, not the summoner, decides to use a power, it does not count as a service.

Now lets extend out scope a bit:
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Conjuring is the art of calling, dismissing, and controlling independent astral beings called spirits. Conjuring can compel a spirit to come to the magician and provide services or favors with Summoning, press a spirit into lasting service with Binding, or dismiss or destroy a spirit with Banishing.
(P. 299 Core)
Spirits are independent beings with the sapience power.

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Sapient critters are self-aware, capable of making their own choices, and are generally at or above the level of Homo sapiens.
(P. 400 Core)
Sapience is defined as beings with the ability to make their own choices. Spirits, like any other NPC, are under the control of the Gamemaster. Knowing this, we can answer your question:


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Power Use is a completely separate service from Combat - which is why the clarification is there. Why give a Spirit of Man a fireball spell if you can't tell it to cast the spell? Or Heal? Or whatever
You absolutely can tell it to use its powers, but if you do so, it costs a service. The key to your supposition that combat overrides the normal spirit rules lies in a (I think) misunderstanding of how spirits work. Spirits are sapient beings, as established above, they make their own choices. When a magician summons a spirit, he basically enslaves it to his will to perform a number of services. Note the terms "compel" and "press into service". A spirit can fight this, but the magician can bring him to heel (rules P. 301 Core, "Bad Feelings With Bound Spirits").

The GM makes decisions for the spirit as he would for any other NPC. Within the world, the spirit makes his own decisions. When the summoner overrides the spirits will to compel a service, he pays for this with a service owed. At the game table this means that despite the fact that the GM has overall control, the player can override the GM and demand the spirit do something else. If the service asked is to do battle on behalf of the summoner, that costs one service and the GM at the table and the spirit in the gameworld decide how best to go about it. The summoner however still maintains his control and if he does not like the spirits actions, he can order it to do something else. However, doing so overrides the will of the spirit/ GM once more and therefore, costs another service.

There is another important implication of that rule, and that is that a spirit cannot free itself by using its powers during combat. If that formulation wasn't there, a spirit could simply cast a few spells, each counting as a Power Use service and then leave once its services ran out. With the rule a spirit can still "play dumb" to coax the summoner into giving it direct orders, but its the magicians choice whether or not to do that.

In short: a magician can order it to do any service he wishes and if the spirit decides that end is best met through the means of a power, it does so of its own free will. But of the magician orders it to use a power during the process of another service, it overrides the will of the spirit and therefore costs a service.

The way you interpret it, is basically the old wishing for more wishes scenario. You want the spirit to pretend that your first override of his will, to go into combat for you, gives you licence to continually override it's will until "combat" ends. What's to stop a magician from defining combat as his struggle for something? Nothing, but it doesn't matter because it's the spirit that decides what constitutes a service and what doesn't. From a game-world perspective, the rules are little more than "tried and true guidelines".

In order to lighten the mood of this topic a bit, here's a fun story about how spirit services can work in the game-world: (2nd edition)
A long time ago, we were facing off against a recuring villain magician in a climactic battle. This magician, apart from being a first class bad guy, had a habit of abusing spirits. On more than one occasion, he had ordered low force fire spirits to take a swim, water spirits to mud wrestle and the like, but he also had a habit of using low force spirits for purposes of grounding. During our final encounter, he was accompanied by a force 13 fire elemental. Our magician burned and used almost his entire karma pool to take control of the elemental and barely managed to do so, gaining control and one service in the process and was almost incapacitated by the drain. Right after taking control, he ordered the elemental to "burn the fucker". The elemental promptly proceeded to engulf the enemy mage. Shortly after, the mage turned to ash and his support was mopped up. Then the elemental bowed down to our mage and asked for his orders. Our mage was somewhat confused and told him he had only had one service, which he had fulfilled. To this, the elemental smiled and said: "Yeah, I know. But that bastard was for free."

Moral is, the rules may say how spirits work mechanically, but they also warn you to treat them nicely. Word gets around and there are spirits out there more powerful than you. For all we know, their home-plane is perfect society where everyone loves everyone and the spirit you just tried to con into giving you more services than it owes is little brother to a legion of high force spirits, some of which are bound to your enemies. Spirits make their own decisions and when ordered into combat, they may just go straight for you next time.

As the saying goes: "Don't shit where you eat." Spirits can be your most powerful ally or worst enemy. Abuse them at your own risk.

RHat

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« Reply #32 on: <11-27-13/0554:19> »
The spirit must fight to the best of it's ability.

I'm curious as to where this notion comes from - unless I'm missing something, it's not in the text and contrary to every notion I know about how spirits operate.

In any case, that bit in Power Use is not that complication.  Let's say we have Sam the Shaman and Max the Mage.  Both summon spirits to try to find something for them.  Sam's spirit likes him, so it decides to use the Search power to get it done for him quickly.  Meanwhile, Max's spirit hates him, so it decides to take their sweet time with it just to screw with him - but Max needs it done quickly, so he compels the spirit to use the Search power.  It doesn't take a service when Sam's spirit uses the power, because the spirit chose to use it.  But in order to compel the spirit to use the power, Max must spend a service.
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sn0mm1s

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« Reply #33 on: <11-27-13/1025:57> »
Note I'm trying something new here. Rules citations are blue, poster's comments are normal quotes.

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No, you are reading that wrong. Plus - what the point of the summoner being able to mentally communicate with the spirit during combat if he can't direct him to do something.
To be technical, the summoner does not communicate mentally with the spirit. Its the other way around. While most GMs handwave this to mean a two way link, the rules are quite clear that it is one way. The summoner only knows when a spirit is disrupted because of the loss of the link. The spirit can keep this link open to receive orders, but it is born from the spirits powers, not the magicians. So technically, a spirit can chose not to listen by closing the link, forcing the magician to talk.

There is absolutely zero chance it works that way. You would never be able to call your bound spirits.

Let's say you are an aspected magician with magic of 7. You are a conjurer and you have a bound spirit. That spirit can be anywhere in astral space or the physical plane in a 700m radius - and the spirit is well aware of the boundary and is always at the edge. Let's say the spirit closes the connection (as you say it can) how would the summoner ever contact the spirit?

Reaver

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« Reply #34 on: <11-27-13/1035:36> »
The spirit must fight to the best of it's ability.

I'm curious as to where this notion comes from - unless I'm missing something, it's not in the text and contrary to every notion I know about how spirits operate.

In any case, that bit in Power Use is not that complication.  Let's say we have Sam the Shaman and Max the Mage.  Both summon spirits to try to find something for them.  Sam's spirit likes him, so it decides to use the Search power to get it done for him quickly.  Meanwhile, Max's spirit hates him, so it decides to take their sweet time with it just to screw with him - but Max needs it done quickly, so he compels the spirit to use the Search power.  It doesn't take a service when Sam's spirit uses the power, because the spirit chose to use it.  But in order to compel the spirit to use the power, Max must spend a service.

it's not exactly stated for unbound spirits... but in the red box on page 301 there is this little blurb:

"While unbound spirits are limited in the services they can
offer, bound spirits are compelled by the magical bond to do their
utmost on the magician’s behalf"

And the wording for summoned spirits uses words like "forced to" and "compelled"....

So yes, people could be reading more into this then what is actually there.

Personally: I treat Spirits as NPCs and follow commands of the mage as they are worded.... so a combat command would mean that the spirit fights to the best of his ability, employing cover so it doesn't get hurt as is out of the line of fire, uses it's spells and powers to overcome the opposition in the most efficient and safest (for the spirit) ways possible. This really also plays to the spirits best interests as well (since it is now a target for the bad guys too!)

However, with some other tasks that could be required of it, I guess the spirit could be a dick and take it's sweet time.... but I feel this would depend on the relationship the summoner has with the spirit community. If the relationship is positive then I see the spirit being helpful. If it is negative, I see it being.... less then helpful. and if it is REALLY negative... well, best not think about that.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Beaumis

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« Reply #35 on: <11-27-13/1241:04> »
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There is absolutely zero chance it works that way. You would never be able to call your bound spirits.

Im just going to requote a part for you:
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This link allows for communication over a distance but does not extend to the metaplanes, [...]
(P. 302 Core)
Seeing as the link does not extend to the metaplanes, recalling them has to work some other way anyhow. The rules don't say how it works in the game world, but the do say how it works mechanically.

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The bound spirit can be called or dismissed with a Simple Action as they appear next to the magician from the metaplane, awaiting further instructions on the astral.
There is a simple action that calls or dismisses a spirit from the metaplanes to astral space. There is no mention anywhere that this is done through the spirit-summoner link and the link clearly states that it is created by the spirit and it is the spirit that determines the communication.

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Let's say you are an aspected magician with magic of 7. You are a conjurer and you have a bound spirit. That spirit can be anywhere in astral space or the physical plane in a 700m radius - and the spirit is well aware of the boundary and is always at the edge. Let's say the spirit closes the connection (as you say it can) how would the summoner ever contact the spirit?
That is not really the spirits problem now is it? It's orders were to stay at 700m distance. It will obey these orders until the service attached to them is done (simply staying 700m away is no service. Services are specific actions). People seem to think that spirits are robots that follow orders blindly but they don't and aren't. They have minds of their own and if you treat them badly, they can do the exact same thing. If a summoner was bad enough for the spirit to close the mental connection, why should it care about getting new orders if it can just wait it out? Why would it give you an opportunity to abuse it further? Ever notice how soldiers "accidentally" turn of their radios if they don't want more bad orders? Same thing really.

Bound spirits are compelled to do their utmost to complete the service set to them, but that is still a wide margin of semantics. Even spirits are dumb sometimes and they do not have the GMs complete oversight. A spirit might simply be in the world for the first time and not know that humans can't do telepathy without its help. And even if it has complete oversight and infinte understanding, it still only has to follow the letter of the law. An order like "fight these goons for me" can be interpreted as "Kill them as efficiently as possible" or "Keep them busy". A spirit that dislikes you can pick whichever interpretation is valid by the wording of the summoner.

The GM is not supposed to use spirits to screw his players over for no reason, but if the player has managed to get on the bad side of the spirit world, there is pretty good reason to do so. Its a "you play nice, I play nice" deal. If you get a reputation for putting spirits in harms way to save your sorry ass, why would the spirit world keep itself open to your abuse?

sn0mm1s

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« Reply #36 on: <11-27-13/1339:46> »
Sorry, again, no way it works that way. If it did a summoned (but not bound) spirit would never have to do anything - ever for a summoner. Why would it? It would just sever the link and fly around at the speed of thought in astral space until sunrise/set. You would never be able to find it, communicate with it, or order it to do a single thing.


RHat

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« Reply #37 on: <11-27-13/1357:06> »
Sorry, again, no way it works that way. If it did a summoned (but not bound) spirit would never have to do anything - ever for a summoner. Why would it? It would just sever the link and fly around at the speed of thought in astral space until sunrise/set. You would never be able to find it, communicate with it, or order it to do a single thing.



You're mistaken - the method would be to call the spirit.  What that means is unclear, however.
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Alchemyst

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« Reply #38 on: <11-27-13/1410:51> »
I'm a little confused as to where you are getting the idea that the link can be 'turned off.' It's my understanding that as long as the spirit owes you services it's an 'always on' deal until the spirit is disrupted. Calling or dismissing the spirit is something else entirely between the summoner and spirit. It's less about what the spirit knows it can do and more that magic just makes it so. The spirit feels the link too. That's how the spirit knows how far it is from the summoner, exactly where the summoner is, etc. If it goes to the metaplane obviously the link is severed but the summoner can just snap his fingers and woosh, the spirit is at his side so the link is not needed.

It's also my belief that this is a true two-way link. No where does it say that the spirit and summoner have to be within a certain distance to give orders, bring the spirit to heel, etc. It just says things like, "at any time." Could the spirit choose not to respond? I suppose, that's up to GM, however I think it would be compelled to anyways but that's just me (not sure if it stats in the book anywhere the need to).

Edit:
I'd like to add that yes spirits are sentient but they are compelled by magic when summoned. You can't just wisk the magic bit away to focus on free will. Piss off the spirits and yeah you should probably take a lot of precautions against spirits coming after you, but as for those you summon, they can huff and puff all they want but they still have to do what you say. Summoning and binding is essentially stripping the spirit of true free will temporarily. It's really enslavement if you think about it.

Quote from: Beaumis
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If the spirit uses a power as part of another task (often in combat), then the power use doesn’t count as a separate service.
It goes on to state that if the spirit, not the summoner, decides to use a power, it does not count as a service.
No where in the text does it say "if the spirit decides..." it says, "if the spirit uses..."
'Uses' is the keyword there. If a mage tells a spirit to use Engulf, it's still the spirit using it. RAW never states that the spirit must use a power of its own volition only that it must use the power as part of another task (combat for example).

Note:
My stance is still that it can currently be interpreted either way, just not by adding phrasing that isn't there.
« Last Edit: <11-27-13/1428:19> by Alchemyst »

RHat

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« Reply #39 on: <11-27-13/1432:02> »
'Uses' is the keyword there. If a mage tells a spirit to use Engulf, it's still the spirit using it. RAW never states that the spirit must use a power of its own volition only that it must use the power as part of another task (combat for example).

The spirit using it in order to complete a service does not consume a new service, but INSTRUCTING it to does - it's fulfilling your combat service, and then you separately give it a different instruction; that separate instruction is not part of the combat service you first sent it towards.  If you give a spirit an instruction to do something, it's a service - a service is defined as a single task; "fight these guys" and "use Engulf on that guy" are two different tasks even if they're toward the same goal, and as such use two services.

And spirits have to do what you SAY, yes, but that's not the same as having to do what you MEAN.
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Alchemyst

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« Reply #40 on: <11-27-13/1513:53> »
'Uses' is the keyword there. If a mage tells a spirit to use Engulf, it's still the spirit using it. RAW never states that the spirit must use a power of its own volition only that it must use the power as part of another task (combat for example).

The spirit using it in order to complete a service does not consume a new service, but INSTRUCTING it to does - it's fulfilling your combat service, and then you separately give it a different instruction; that separate instruction is not part of the combat service you first sent it towards.  If you give a spirit an instruction to do something, it's a service - a service is defined as a single task; "fight these guys" and "use Engulf on that guy" are two different tasks even if they're toward the same goal, and as such use two services.

And spirits have to do what you SAY, yes, but that's not the same as having to do what you MEAN.
Use power A on target 1 and 2 you are already fighting is IMHO fighting the "using a power as part of combat" clause. Again it never states that it needs to be the spirit deciding to use it.

Again it's all about interpretation and until official ruling says otherwise both sides are equally valid. I'm not taking a side to which is right or wrong, that's pointless. I'm just stating how I personally interpret it.

This really is purely a RAI discussion.
« Last Edit: <11-27-13/1522:33> by Alchemyst »

RHat

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« Reply #41 on: <11-27-13/1519:21> »
"Fight these guys; use this power on this guy; use this power on this guy; use this power on this guy" is not a single task.
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Alchemyst

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« Reply #42 on: <11-27-13/1523:29> »
"Fight these guys; use this power on this guy; use this power on this guy; use this power on this guy" is not a single task.
Fight these guys, use power on one of them, use power on the other. IMHO is and as stated wording supports both our views.

"If the spirit uses a power as part of another task (often in combat), then the power use doesn’t count as a separate service."
Using engulf on a target as part of the combat with that target is, with my interpretation, satisfactory of that clause listed under the Power Service.

As RAI I will not argue this point, I'm sticking with it until official clarification comes. Perhaps the FAQ will bring some answers eventually.
« Last Edit: <11-27-13/1532:16> by Alchemyst »

RHat

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« Reply #43 on: <11-27-13/1525:07> »
"Single Task" is part of the stated wording.  The closest you could get to calling that a single task is a task with three sub-tasks, which are still per definition tasks that you have given the spirit.
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Alchemyst

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« Reply #44 on: <11-27-13/1552:23> »
"Single Task" is part of the stated wording.  The closest you could get to calling that a single task is a task with three sub-tasks, which are still per definition tasks that you have given the spirit.
In 5e, the combat service covers all combat on your side until it ends (regardless of number of opponents). Attack those guys, attack that guy, and attack them now is all one service. The spirit using powers as part of that service (combat) does not count as a power service. We all agree on that.

The debate comes in as to does the spirit have to decide to use them or can the mage tell the spirit what to use. We are torn on this part.