[Crunch]

Although the Cyberdecks have stepped into the role of some of that stuff. An adept/decker is probably going to either A) Have a much worse deck or B) be significantly behind in skill points or attributes when compared to a non adept decker.

[RHat]

Although the Cyberdecks have stepped into the role of some of that stuff. An adept/decker is probably going to either A) Have a much worse deck or B) be significantly behind in skill points or attributes when compared to a non adept decker.

Not quite in terms of the stuff I mean.  I'm talking about stuff like the Encephalon, Math SPU, the Simsense Booster, PuSHeD, Neocortical Nanites...

[emeketos]

Incorrect on the illegal actions reflecting. Only attack actions reflect damage. However both generate overwatch and have downsides to failure. Failing a Sleaze actions grants the target a mark on you.

An attacker can also spend edge. If they do, they ignore the limit as part of "Push the Limit".

Matrix defence is not an action. Where does it list "Matrix Defence" as an action, and where does it list an associated test with "Full Matrix Defence"? Full Matrix Defence has no test. It's an action that will boost future Matrix Defence tests. Otherwise by that same argument Noise penalties would also be inflicted on defence tests.

Page 244  on the list of matrix actions it's also listed as a matrix action from 242 231
In the discription of "metrics actions" its right in the middle of them clear as day.
Also an attack is a matrix action "test" its a contested test you have the option of adding extra dice to this test by declaring "full defense"  full defense doesn't to anything on its own its a buff for other actions. Declaring it at the beginning of a turn and if no one attacks you nothing happens.  Technically you can use it at any time.

For example if someone attacks you and you declare full matrix defense. The defense action does not switch to full matrix defense because its a buff.

Holding a power focus in your hand doesn't do anything by it self its a buff same for weapon focus or sustained spells.

For example if I am sustaining as a technomancer or one of my sprite sustains "infusion of firewall" an bn attack isn't using a defense action under the infusion of firewall because its a defense buff. In functionality having 4 points added to your firewall from this or 4 points from full defense are identical actions. Dodging deflection blocking attack in the matrix by that alone make it a matrix action.  How is a regular defense roll any diffrent from a full defense roll?

[RHat]

Also an attack is a matrix action "test" its a contested test you have the option of adding extra dice to this test by declaring "full defense"  full defense doesn't to anything on its own its a buff for other actions. Declaring it at the beginning of a turn and if no one attacks you nothing happens.  Technically you can use it at any time.

Point of order:  This relies on the assumption that all opposed rolls involve a defense test, but defense tests are themselves a specific subset of opposed tests; the only place they're even close to defined is the Combat chapter - by the general idea of a defense test therein, it would apply ONLY to Data Spike.

Additionally, Full Matrix Defense is an action without a test - there's nothing to add that bonus TO.  You just take the action; if there was a test for Full Matrix Defense you'd be able to add the hotsim bonus.  The defense test itself (whatever rolls that applies to) benefits from Willpower but is not in fact a Matrix Action, so it doesn't get the hotsim bonus.

[MaxKojote]

Yes. Full Matrix Defence is an action. It provides a buff equal to your willpower to your matrix defence. For all intents and purposes, you get a +2 bonus to applying the buff, not to the buff itself. "Matrix Defence" is not listed as an action, and thus does not receive a +2 bonus from HotSim. There is no difference between them. In fact from what I can tell in your response, you're agreeing with that point, so I fail to see why you feel that Matrix Defence would receive a +2 bonus from HotSim.

Edit: And RHat ends up explaining it better than me anyway.

[Insaniac99]

It doesn't help that the 'ware that was important in building better Matrix specialists isn't around in SR5 yet (and notably, some of it was nanotech).

not having RPed with Shadowrun until 5th, what is the significance that the ware was nano tech?

[Crunch]

One of the changes between 4E and 5E is that a computer virus (called SYBIL) infected much of the worlds nanotechnology making it's use unstable and risky. This resulted in significant economic and political upheaval as well as a reversal of the extreme price drops made possible by nanotech manufacturing and surgery (between 3E and 4E in real life).

[emeketos]

I will admit i was including sleaze I included it as an illegal action but I didn't complete my description. It was an oversight  my apologies 

I am not arguing there are other ways to attack a decker other than cyber combat I am saying in cybercombat full defense wins statistically.  I am saying full defense shouldn't be an offensive action. It also makes sprites somewhat gimped due to their restricted skills.

I am saying generally speaking cyber combat looses..  Fights because of a general dice imbalance and a combination of rules together  make full defense overpowered.

I never said this was about anything other than cyber combat even as everyone ignored that statement.

This is your test case regular cyber combat decker vs rigger
Hacker cyber combat 5, will power and int?log? I forget off the top any case also 5
Rigger 5 firewall with willpower and int? Attack stat in his deck is now set to 5 making that the limit.
 Both around 5 so its a regular cyber combat

So to make this simple bother are cold siming it to take that argument out of the equation.

Gives hacker an attack dice poll of 10 to the riggers 15
Average results would give 3.3 hits to rigger 5. Max hits a hacker can have is 5 without spending karma max hits a rigger is 15(unlimited) again without spending edge.
Bell curving this out with 100 dice rolls is going to put a cap on the bell curve on the high end for the attacker while there is no trimming on defense. Honestly I could do a 1000 rolls and tell you the results but honestly I don't need to I have a very good idea what it will look like.

The makes the skill cyber combat  ineffectual

Other matrix actions are powerful in their  own right and very effective. Also with enough karma and cyberware at the top end this disparity evens out. So yes with the right advantages skills and  cyberware/bioware cyber combat becomes less useless.

This thread is to describe why cyber combat is unintentionally gimped and full matrix defense unintentionally too powerful. So please consider this as this discussion was only about that.

[Lobo]

First of all, your test case is flawed.

Why not:

Hacker
Cyber Combat 6 (Personas), Logic 6, attack 6 (increased by 1 with Decryption) - which can be done with a starting character.  Total dice 14, limit 7

Rigger
Firewall 5, Intuition 6, Willpower 5 - total 16 dice.

Big difference when it is 14 for the hacker and 16 for the rigger.

And again, if you roll 1 more hit than the hacker, then he takes 1 hit.  If he rolls 1 more hit than you, you have to soak at minimum 8 boxes of damage.

You cannot take Sleaze out of the equation, because it is PART OF CYBERCOMBAT.  The act of using Hack on the Fly to increase the number of marks on your target to increase the amount of damage you do IN CYBERCOMBAT is a big part of CYBERCOMBAT.  (caps since you are so insistent about making this about cybercombat.)

It is like saying, "Hey, if I just shoot at you while my eyes are closed, I can't hit you.  Shooting is gimped in this game."  and someone says, "Well, you can open your eyes."  And your response is, "I'm ONLY talking about shooting with my eyes closed, so limit the discussion to that."  It is a silly tiny little niche that doesn't actually happen.

[emeketos]

First of all, your test case is flawed.

Why not:

Hacker
Cyber Combat 6 (Personas), Logic 6, attack 6 (increased by 1 with Decryption) - which can be done with a starting character.  Total dice 14, limit 7

Rigger
Firewall 5, Intuition 6, Willpower 5 - total 16 dice.

Big difference when it is 14 for the hacker and 16 for the rigger.

And again, if you roll 1 more hit than the hacker, then he takes 1 hit.  If he rolls 1 more hit than you, you have to soak at minimum 8 boxes of damage.

You cannot take Sleaze out of the equation, because it is PART OF CYBERCOMBAT.  The act of using Hack on the Fly to increase the number of marks on your target to increase the amount of damage you do IN CYBERCOMBAT is a big part of CYBERCOMBAT.  (caps since you are so insistent about making this about cybercombat.)

It is like saying, "Hey, if I just shoot at you while my eyes are closed, I can't hit you.  Shooting is gimped in this game."  and someone says, "Well, you can open your eyes."  And your response is, "I'm ONLY talking about shooting with my eyes closed, so limit the discussion to that."  It is a silly tiny little niche that doesn't actually happen.

I didn't create a min maxed character thats sole ability is cyber attack. Or vice versa I didn't create a min maxed character that only uses full defense.  Your welcome to min max if you want but the same can be done on the other side.

Like improved stat will,charisma... To give a tecnomancers optimal stats with registered sprites sustaining level 6 infusion of firewall with of course 6 hits. Plus mages buffing the shit out of my other matrix stats. All the while anothe sprite is giving you noise to reduce your dice.
Or better an adept hacker doing ridiculous things to max his dice.

I am talking about generalist hackers not one shot super wonders.

[Insaniac99]

I think we should bring solid math into this and Lobo's numbers are fair to both for stating characters (neither is min-maxed), so I plugged them into my Anydice.com script and here are the results:

• The Decker has a 31% chance to hit
• IF the decker misses here are the chances for each damage (Chance/damage)
  • 20.78% 5 unresisted damage
  • 19.05% 6 unresisted damage
  • 17.32% 4 unresisted damage
  • 13.61% 7 unresisted damage
  • 10.66% 3 unresisted damage
  • 7.65% 8 unresisted damage
  • 4.57% 2 unresisted damage
  • 3.40% 9 unresisted damage
  • 1.22% 1 unresisted damage
  • 1.19% 10 unresisted damage
  • 0.32% 11 unresisted damage
  • 0.07% 12 unresisted damage
  • 0.01% 13 unresisted damage
• AFTER his soak roll, here is the total chance for damage taken anytime the decker attacks

  Chance of happening	damage after resistance roll
  68.38%	0
  6.65%	6
  6.43%	5
  5.13%	7
  4.60%	4
  3.04%	8
  2.41%	3
  1.44%	9
  0.91%	2
  0.56%	10
  0.24%	1
  0.17%	11
  0.04%	12
  0.01%	13

I think the OP has a valid point. On equal opponents, the Defender has a significant advantage, Here are some significant stats:

• The Rigger has a 68% chance to not take any damage
• on the 32% chance the rigger takes damage most of the time it will be 6, 5, or 7 stun after reduction
• on the 68% of the time the decker misses he will take 5 or 6 unresisted stun most of the time

if you want to see for yourself: http://anydice.com/program/2bbe

[emeketos]

Thanks for doing the math I was to lazy to do

[HiddenBoss]

thx Insaniac99

in my def, i not "that" good at math

so i think it work most of the time for the def unless he fighting a max.

[Xenon]

or you could sleaze a few marks on the rigger while he is unaware (and not using full matrix defense) using high sleaze rating and cyberprograms such as exploit and stealth (and if you fail everything that happens is that the rigger get a mark, but without attack rating the rigger can't use the mark for anything)

...then switch to high attack rating and cyberprograms such as decryption, hammer, mugger and then hit him with one single data spike while he still is unaware that he is under attack (and thus does not have full matrix defense). With an attack rating of 6 and just one net hit you are looking at soaking damage value 16.

gg

[emeketos]

For the last time

I am not taking sleaze or any other skill talent spell out of the whole  cyber combat equation. I am taking the skill cyberattack out of the equation. Do to its complete ineffectiveness due to the over powered full matrix defense. I'm fact I am making those skills more important as a direct assault between non min/maxed characters off the table

So for the simple minded
Cyberattack bad
Everything else good