Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Hobbes on <01-24-20/1956:58>
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Totally a clickbait title, but stick with me. Can't take credit for spotting this, Stainless Steel Devil Rat pointed out the Spoof Command matrix action requires Outsider Access to work.
"So what Hobbes, we had Spoof Command in 5e it was conditional at best"
Yes, but in 5e parlance, Outsider Access means no Marks required.
Need to pop a lock? Cracking plus Logic vs Firewall plus Data Processing (or Pilot).
Lock slaved to a host? Same roll.
Need to reboot a camera? Done.
Sentry Drone? Shoot that guy.
Slaved to Host, part of a PAN, doesn't matter. Outsider Access means you can resolve a Hack in a single roll. Unless it's a data steal on a Host the Hacking Mini-game is basically optional.
Thanks to Robert aka Banshee for confirming on the Errata team discord. You may now definitively tell your friends why 6th is better than 5th.
Okay, at least for those of us who play/GM for a lot of Hackers.
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Lol we can't keep nice things to the evil side of the GM screen, can we Hobbes?
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Hell no, I'm a Players GM : )
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Yes, action economy for hacking is much improved in SR6.
Note that if you think you will take control of more than one device connected to the same network (PAN or WAN, doesn't matter) before you will reboot then you still might want to try to first gain access to it... Reason is that once you have access all them "individual and illegal Spoof Command actions that might risk generating overwatch score each time you use it" turn into "legal control device actions that don't".
Also note that the effect of Spoof command is also not executed immediately. There is a short delay from you giving the instruct to the device actually take the action on its own (for example ordering a drone to shoot at one of your enemies). The drone will take the action on its own initiative score and use its own ratings while doing this (in this case it would be resolved with a Cracking + Logic vs. Pilot + Firewall of the host or RCC it is slaved to and then it fires on its own using its [Weapon] Targeting autosoft + Sensor rating).
While Control Device will let you take and execute the action directly, yourself (for example controlling a drone to shoot at one of your enemies). You take the action directly on your turn and you use your own ratings (in this case it would be resolved as a single Engineering + Logic test rather than two separate tests).
It was similar in SR5, but in all scenarios it always required an extra "gain access" step to resolve. In SR6 this extra step is no longer needed.
To Spoof Command you first had to gain access on the owner. Once you had access on the owner you could take the Spoof Command without first gaining access on individual devices in the network. If you wished to Spoof Command to another device that belong to another owner (which could be read as another PAN or WAN) you first had to gain access on that owner.
For Control Device you first had to gain access on each individual device. Once you had access on the device you could take the Control Device. If you wished to control another device you had to first gain access to that other device, even if it belonged to the same network (WAN or PAN).
In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.
In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.
Again, less action economy. Much faster to resolve. Much easier to use for both players and GMs.
There are some drawbacks though (in SR6 you can't for example notice if a hacker have access on your device and you can't 'remove' his access as you could in SR5- but overall matrix rules in SR6 are much better than in any previous edition if you ask me).
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There are some drawbacks though (in SR6 you can't for example notice if a hacker have access on your device and you can't 'remove' his access as you could in SR5- but overall matrix rules in SR6 are much better than in any previous edition if you ask me).
Matrix Perception on your own devices/Icons would probably let you know who has Admin Access. p 178 "The other way to use Matrix Perception would be to analyze one particular icon or search for a hidden icon." Mind you that RAW that puts you in the weird situation of being your own opponent in an opposed roll.
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There are some drawbacks though (in SR6 you can't for example notice if a hacker have access on your device and you can't 'remove' his access as you could in SR5- but overall matrix rules in SR6 are much better than in any previous edition if you ask me).
To remove hacked access, I'd suggest the use of the Reboot Device command on the device running the PAN, which would automatically succeed if it's your own device. That seems reasonably within RAW to me. I'd rule that a single Major action would issue the reboot command and also let you log off gracefully and avoid dumpshock.
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Matrix Perception on your own devices/Icons would probably let you know who has Admin Access.
Even if it was possible there is still no 'erase mark' action in 6th.
And just rebooting the device is also not enough. You would need to reboot the entire network.......
(or force the hacker to reboot).
But in the grand scheme of all positive changes this is a minor thing (and depending on how you view it not even an issue really)
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Matrix Perception on your own devices/Icons would probably let you know who has Admin Access.
Even if it was possible there is still no 'erase mark' action in 6th.
Bullets erase all marks... ;)
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Removing unwanted Access. Geek the Hacker certainly works. Turning off Wireless works, potentially a little slower in 6th than 5th though.
I'm on the fence as to Reboot removing other User/Admin Access. Mainly because if a secure Host is compromised and Rebooting removes unwanted access, it should be an option for the Spider. And Rebooting Hosts really isn't covered, and I kinda doubt a Host boots back up in 3 seconds.
But for commlink controlled PANs or regular Devices, I'd let a re-boot remove unwanted Access. Mind you, while your PAN Master is Rebooting, the formerly protected Devices are on their own.
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In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.
In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.
The part with the Matrix perception have always been very weird to me. Let's say we are in combat. Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot? One icon with more hits giving more info? All icons running silently? Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?
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In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.
In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.
The part with the Matrix perception have always been very weird to me. Let's say we are in combat. Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot? One icon with more hits giving more info? All icons running silently? Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?
No, it works just like normal perception... if a group of ninjas are sneaking up on you and you make the perception check with enough hits to beat there stealth rolls you see all of them right ... matrix is the same way. You see everything that you rolled high enough to see.
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In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.
In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.
The part with the Matrix perception have always been very weird to me. Let's say we are in combat. Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot? One icon with more hits giving more info? All icons running silently? Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?
No, it works just like normal perception... if a group of ninjas are sneaking up on you and you make the perception check with enough hits to beat there stealth rolls you see all of them right ... matrix is the same way. You see everything that you rolled high enough to see.
That should totally go in the FAQ.
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In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.
In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.
The part with the Matrix perception have always been very weird to me. Let's say we are in combat. Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot? One icon with more hits giving more info? All icons running silently? Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?
No, it works just like normal perception... if a group of ninjas are sneaking up on you and you make the perception check with enough hits to beat there stealth rolls you see all of them right ... matrix is the same way. You see everything that you rolled high enough to see.
That should totally go in the FAQ.
That's the plan, we added some verbage in the errata but not enough room for too much detail. Honestly though I think the only people struggling with this so hard are the ones that have previous editions experience confusing things. Previous editions made it way more complicated than it needed to be
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Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot?
Normally you would not need to roll matrix perception at all before you get to interact with an icon (because in most situations icons in the matrix are immediately obvious and does not require a test to be spotted), but if the network is trying to hide (is running silent) then you would use matrix perception in order to spot it. Just like in previous edition Matrix perception may also be used to spot a specific persona or device (or File) that is currently concealed by Phantom (or Camouflage) Sprite power. This is not much different than spotting someone sneaking around in the shadows (or under the influence of an Invisibility Spell or Concealment Critter Power) with physical perception.
You can also spend an action to observe a target in detail, much like you can spend an action to observe something in detail with physical (or astral) perception. Hits from this test will for example reveal the targets device rating, if a file have a data bomb, which programs a persona is running, its matrix attributes or even if it is a actually living persona rather than a device based persona...
Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?
In 5th edition you would normally just take a single matrix perception test to spot a specific persona icon. There were basically only two exceptions to this:
- If the persona was running silent then it would get to oppose the test.
- If not and within 100 meters (or within the same host) no test was needed to begin with.
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6e is easier for gms, i have been running shadowrun since 2nd. There's no perfect ruleset. 6th is off to a rough start though and there's plenty of errata to be done. I do feel like the matrix is 100% better. Nobody ever wanted to be a decker until this edition.
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6e is easier for gms, i have been running shadowrun since 2nd. There's no perfect ruleset. 6th is off to a rough start though and there's plenty of errata to be done. I do feel like the matrix is 100% better. Nobody ever wanted to be a decker until this edition.
I pretty much forbade them my players to play Deckers in 5th edition and made a DM boosted decker NPC's which simply didn't fail the checks (unless story appropriate) in order to avoid Matrix Interactions. And yeah I really like the new edition but it does need more work. That i was published so untested leaves a bad taste. After the 20-1 version the book is more playable now but there are still some thing which bother me. Strenght really doesn't have a good use anymore and many of the qualities need complete rework. Analytical mind is super broken, Impaired attribute is super strong and the addictions give pathetic karma compared to allergies while being much more harsh on the player.
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I would say that Addiction vs Allergy really depends on how the GM plays them. An addiction to smoking sounds like cheap to me compared to allergies.
I will soon have an errataed edition, so then I can start writing my houserules. There's qualities that need reworking, and a GM can just ban them outright but it's easier if there's more balanced versions.
Note that the quality may have suffered, but the book definitely wasn't untested. I heard enough about the playtests to know that much. But change blindness is a big problem when you're heavily cutting back on page count.
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How hard would it be to take the 6E matrix and technos and use them in a 5E game?
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How hard would it be to take the 6E matrix and technos and use them in a 5E game?
That’s approximately what I’m doing - my campaign is having a soft reboot next week [1] and I’m using a backported version of the 6e Matrix rules. It’s mostly 6e, except where it interacts with the wider 5e system (so ASDF are still limits and not Attack/Defence Rating.) It worked well enough in some test scenarios I ran. I’ll know more once it gets more table time.
I don’t have a doc I can share publicly; the one I have is full of screen grabs from 5e and 6e’s PDFs and is probably borderline for fair use.
[1] we finished a year-long arc, now starting a new one with a mixture of old and new characters.
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How hard would it be to take the 6E matrix and technos and use them in a 5E game?
That’s approximately what I’m doing - my campaign is having a soft reboot next week [1] and I’m using a backported version of the 6e Matrix rules. It’s mostly 6e, except where it interacts with the wider 5e system (so ASDF are still limits and not Attack/Defence Rating.) It worked well enough in some test scenarios I ran. I’ll know more once it gets more table time.
I don’t have a doc I can share publicly; the one I have is full of screen grabs from 5e and 6e’s PDFs and is probably borderline for fair use.
[1] we finished a year-long arc, now starting a new one with a mixture of old and new characters.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know so please keep us posted.
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Should be fairly easy.
When you spot an Icon in a PAN or a WAN (such as a Device Icon) you now automatically spot all other Icons in the PAN or WAN (including Device Icons and the Persona Icon or Host Icon). In reality you now spot the entire 'network' at once. Either the entire 'network' is running silent, or it isn't.
When you place a mark on an Icon in a PAN or a WAN (such as a Device Icon or the Persona Icon or Host Icon) you now automatically gain a mark on all other icons in the PAN or WAN (including Device Icons and the Persona Icon or Host Icon). In reality you now gain a mark on the entire 'network' at once. Either you have access on the 'network', or you don't.
Spoof Command no longer require a mark at all (it can now be taken without being on the 'inside' of the 'network', similar to Data Spike).
Done.
Pretty much everything else can be left untouched.
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We've enjoyed the matrix in every edition to date including Anarchy and I've had multiple players wanting to be matrix specialists including an entire game based around Matrix characters in 5e. 6e has some advantages for those that prefer a more casual matrix-based experience.
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Pretty much everything else can be left untouched.
It's not awful but there's more to it than you've covered here.
Such as: the shift from Hack on the Fly to Probe/Backdoor, different OS accumulation, no Matrix damage from Brute Force, changing marks to access levels (which has knock-on effects across programs, other actions, etc), removing mechanics for grids (if you didn't do that already in 5e per Kill Code), "nested" PANs, host maps, the Tar Pit and Encrypt File actions, Check OS works differently, the new Hash Check action, etc etc.
Then there's things that you might or might not bring over: 6e has different Matrix initiative, no dice pool penalty for running silent, the extended test mechanic for Matrix search, 6e's cyberdecks can run twice as many programs, the entire concept of cyberjacks, different PAN size limits, probably more things I'm forgetting.
My doc is currently 35 pages long. Mostly that's a detailed comparison of 5e and 6e, though, which I wrote first to see where the changes were. But it's not a trivial undertaking.
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One of the biggest things for me (and I wonder why it´s not mentioned more often):
Matrix Damage cause "Wound Modifiers" now, applicable to all uses of the device. And if I´m not mistaken, that´s really all the devices, including Drones, Smartguns etc. That´s huge. It may seem like "spiky" Deckers are in a worse place compared to 5th Edition, with the lowered Damage Codes and the missing Bonus Damage from Programms and Marks. But unlike 5th Edition, Deckers don´t have to oneshot everything or risk losing their target. Dataspiking a Smartgun mid-combat might not be enough to instantly brick it, but it´s likely enough to incur a modificator of -1 or -2. And this one sticks even when the Streetsam takes it off the Matrix.
Say what you want about 6th Edition, but the Matrix really has been improved overall. The only thing I don´t like is that the VR modes offer so little benefit for the additional risk. The additional Minor in Cold Sim is practically pointless (there are only a few Minor Matrix Actions, most of which are situational), and while the second Major from Hot Sim is quite usefull, you can get there with Augmentations or Drugs as well. Without the Dice Pool modifier from the Previous Editions, VR isn´t really worth it right now. But that´s easy to fix with a houserule or two, and maybe an upcoming supplement or Errata cycle steps in as well.
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One of the biggest things for me (and I wonder why it´s not mentioned more often):
Matrix Damage cause "Wound Modifiers" now, applicable to all uses of the device. And if I´m not mistaken, that´s really all the devices, including Drones, Smartguns etc. That´s huge.
Ah, yes, I left that out of my list there (although it is mentioned in my doc.) I think that’s a pretty big deal, indeed. Although you can run into fluff issues with players who don’t like the idea that (say) guns need the Matrix to work, and so can be impeded by Matrix damage.
Say what you want about 6th Edition, but the Matrix really has been improved overall.
Strongly agree!
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Should be fairly easy.... Pretty much everything else can be left untouched.
I'm having another pass through my doc now and there's a lot more smaller changes than you might think.
For example, just from Matrix Combat actions (and excluding changes that stem from broader 5e->6e mechanics, like no more Interrupt actions, or recalibrated damage values):
- Crash Program resistance changes from Intuition+Firewall to Data Processing+Device Rating
- Crash Program now needs Admin access rather than 1 mark
- Data Spike resistance changes from Intuition+Firewall to Data Processing+Firewall
- Data Spike no longer gets a damage bonus if you hold marks / access levels on the target
- Full Matrix Defence no longer lasts the entire round but just one attack (which feels like an error, but there it is)
- Full Matrix Defence adds Firewall, not Willpower, to your defence pools
- Full Matrix Defence used to need 4 marks to use, now it needs none (which feels like a bit of 5e weirdness that has been sanded off)
- Tarpit action is entirely new
This is just across four actions, the other actions all have similar levels of small tweaks.
I must admit, the reasoning behind some of these smaller changes is opaque to me. I think I'd need to compile a master list of them all so I could look over them at a glance and look for patterns. Maybe the intent is to make deckers' chargen different? By requiring different stats?
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Here's a peek at my doc, for those who are curious. Imagine this, but for ~35 pages, across every action, every program, etc etc. It's quite a job of work!
Edit - and I just noticed the 6e dumpshock text is wrong there (now fixed in my doc)
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The big thing is the improved action economy. Rest is mostly just minor shuffle.
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I spent some time this weekend going over 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 6th editions and can say that each version had it's rough spots. In my humble opinion, one of the most arrogant and overused phrases on the internet, I honestly don't think that 6th is really that bad. The biggest problem with the CRB is that it was put together by a team of unconnected players, in illogical and confusingly disjointed manner, contains too much "flavor" in places where we need the numbers, examples and clearer descriptions. Editing is it's biggest failing, but the new mechanics aren't bad....just different.
Why 6th over 5th? No reason other than you want to change things up, play something interesting and have the money to drop on a new take on. the game.