Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Jeeves on <09-15-10/1909:34>

Title: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Jeeves on <09-15-10/1909:34>
Is critical strike as an adept power capped at 6 like mystic armor, or at 3 like power throw? I've noticed that it's possible to make an adept who is capable of having these stats:

Strenth of 5, giving base damage for unarmed attacks 3S

Hardliner gloves, which bump it to 4P

Martial art of boxing which can give a +2DV for unarmed, bringing up to 6P

then, 6 ranks of criticall strike which bings it to 12P.


On side note, if i have a character with a rank 7 skill through aptitude, is it against the rules to increace it with the improved combat skill adept power?

I had a character, dubbed "fisticuffs", who had killing hands, 6 ranks in crit strike, and distance strike.

Unarmed combat was 7
improved with 1 rank of improved combat skill
agility was 5
+2 for specialization,
+2 more for his weapon focus, a pair of hardliner gloves,

so his dice pool was around 17 for unarmed combat, but with the set up and finishing move combo, he'd devastate an opponenet by rolling that twice.

Granted, his distance punches were weaker since the hardliner gloves couldn't provide a damage bonus, but still, I'm pretty sure that 6 ranks of crit strike might have been broken.


Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Mystic on <09-15-10/1913:58>
Thats why I never let them get that close if I can help it. 23 feet is my friend.

 8)
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Jeeves on <09-15-10/1915:56>
Right, but is the 6 ranks broken?
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: anotherJack on <09-15-10/1922:33>
No limit to critical strike but your magic attribute, as usual, and yes, you can increase your skill with the improved combat skill adept power, you can increase it up to 10 like this.
Nice build.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <09-15-10/2010:24>
So talking about cheese, take an Ork (or tiger shapechanger) adept: Based off 500BP build
Strength: 4DV + Bone spikes (2DV) + Thorns (1DV) + Critical strike (6DV) + Martial arts (3DV)=16DV -1 penetration with a Attack Die pool of Skill (8 ) + agility (7) + Full offensive (2) - thorns (1)= 16

Side note: We do not allow Adepts to combine Hardliners with their critical strike; this avoids them then trying to make the gloves a weapon focus and it really getting silly. Also we do not allow the Spikes and thorns in our games....one or the other.

Body:------------------------8/9 [13]----() BP40
Agility:-----------------------6/7 [10]---(7) BP40
Reaction:-------------------5/6 [9]-----(8 ) BP 40
Strength:-------------------7/8 [12]---() BP 40
Charisma:-------------------2/5 [7]-----() BP 10
Intuition:-------------------5/6 [9]---------BP40
Logic:------------------------3/5 [7]--------BP20   
Willpower:------------------3/6 [9]--------BP 20
Magic----------------------- 6-------------- BP65
Edge-------------------------3--------------BP 20
Total race and atr.:BP 335

Initiative/pass: 10(13)/1(4)
Qualities:
Adept: 5BP
Martial Arts: 10 BP Muay thi (twice +2 DV), Wild kat (+1 DV)
Surge class 2: 10BP
    Meta genetic: exceptional attribute agility: BP 20
    Meta genetic: Bone spikes (+2 Unarmed DV) BP 5

Negative:
Geas: Daily ritual (your choice)       -10
(this is using advance rules were Geasa is linked to one power (Improved reflexes) and gains this power at .25 reduction)
In Debt: +20BP
Nano intolerance: +5BP
Meta genetic negative:
   Thorns: +10 BP (+1 DV and -1 all physical tests) [if you allow this with bone spikes]
Adept Powers:
Improved reflexes level 3 (cost 3)
Killing hands: (Cost .5)
Critical Strike: level 6 (cost 1.5)
Penetrating strike: Level 1 (cost .25)
Increased Attribute (agility) level 1 (cost .75)
Skills:
Unarmed combat: rank 6   24BP
           Martial Arts +2        2BP
Maneuvers:   Full offense  2 BP/finishing move  2BP

Some other skills Gear and Contacts=125 BP
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: voydangel on <09-15-10/2242:07>
Is critical strike as an adept power capped at 6 like mystic armor, or at 3 like power throw?
RAW: "The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adepts magic attribute."
So, yes and no, the critical strike is capped like mystic armor, but the cap is not 6 (unless your magic attribute happens to be a 6).

I've noticed that it's possible to make an adept who is capable of having these stats:

Strenth of 5, giving base damage for unarmed attacks 3S

Hardliner gloves, which bump it to 4P

Martial art of boxing which can give a +2DV for unarmed, bringing up to 6P

then, 6 ranks of critical strike which brings it to 12P.
That looks about right.

On side note, if i have a character with a rank 7 skill through aptitude, is it against the rules to increase it with the improved combat skill adept power?
Yes, the maximum a skill can be modified to is 1.5 times the natural skill rating. So if you have a 7 in your skill, the maximum you can get it to with "improved ability" would be 10 (7 x 1.5 rounding down). (as noted by anotherJack).

I had a character, dubbed "fisticuffs", who had killing hands, 6 ranks in crit strike, and distance strike.

Unarmed combat was 7
improved with 1 rank of improved combat skill
agility was 5
+2 for specialization,
+2 more for his weapon focus, a pair of hardliner gloves,

so his dice pool was around 17 for unarmed combat, but with the set up and finishing move combo, he'd devastate an opponent by rolling that twice.

Granted, his distance punches were weaker since the hardliner gloves couldn't provide a damage bonus, but still, I'm pretty sure that 6 ranks of crit strike might have been broken.
Broken, yes. Illegal, no. =)
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Jeeves on <09-16-10/0955:45>
Well, then, why was power throw capped at 3 ranks in the erratta for Street Magic?
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <09-16-10/1011:58>
I know some of this has been said, but let’s put all information concerning adepts and there power level in one post.
Quote
Many adept powers may be purchased at a variable rating. The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adept’s Magic attribute. Page 195 4Ea

So we now have powers = Magic attribute. Your magic attribute can = 6+initiation

Now some of powers have a set cap that is written into their description: example would be penetrating strike = 3 max levels.

I hope this clears up any questions concerning adept powers and there level max rank.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: voydangel on <09-16-10/1139:21>
Yes, some powers are capped directly in the description, like "improved reflexes", and apparently "power throw". So I guess the proper wording would be:

"Unless stated otherwise, the maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adepts magic attribute."

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <09-16-10/1326:34>
I do not find it to be inherently broken.  You can break it sure, but you can break a lot of things in this game, like any open build game.  Look at gun modification for awesome ways to break things.  Overall though melee combat is just weaker so no it generally is not broken.  Even with distance strike you are not as good off as a ranged attack.  Sure it works like one, but it is a range of magic meters, or basically melee.  It still is a complex action meanwhile the guy with the SMG is pumping out a long burst and short burst, or a full burst, or suppressive fire, all of which are just as potent in their own ways.  And did my SMG spend 3.5 PPs of his magic to be that awesome nope.  And is this worse than a force 9 stun ball taking out a room, of unresisted power bolts blowing up citymasters if you stack up enough dice for combat spells. (6 magic+6spellcasting+2 mentor+2specilization+4power focus bought with restricted gear)=20 dice for combat spells.  Does that make combat spells broken(I happen to think they are but for different reasons) or does that mean someone worked the system to break the game. 

The main problem with melee combat IMO, is that unless it is your focus it is borderline useless, and if it is your focus you need to be a decent player and try not to break the game. 
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <09-16-10/2045:40>
I think it comes down to what the overall PC looks like, if i have a PC with a Die pool of 20+ die for combat but nothing else on his sheet is a mini/max PC. But if you work a PC where he is more balanced in terms of gaming option but still has the high combat die pool would be considered a specialist
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Machiavelli on <09-19-10/0350:31>
Everybody that spents 3 of his possibly 6 power points to get his melee damage that high, has earned it. 3 points for this power means 3 less points for more important things.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Casazil on <09-19-10/0400:38>
Crit strike is only a .25 power so level 6 is only 1.5 not 3

And If I remember right the gloves don't add. It's either your adept power doing damage or your gloves not both.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Machiavelli on <09-19-10/0420:31>
For the first argument you are completely right. My math is weak in the morning.^^ But i disagree why they don´t stack with hardliner gloves. You simply strike harder, this stacks with nearly everything except shock-gloves.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Casazil on <09-19-10/0425:20>
Well it was either another Missions GM that said it to me, Or a player said something to me about another player, Or My friend Magus (on the fourms here) who is a dam good rules lawyer told me this so..........

I'll look another time for now I'm just pokeing around and seeing what there is to read after fixing my new character I posted on here it's a bit late to be digging in books for me  ;D
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Machiavelli on <09-19-10/0430:01>
I could tell you to check in another forum for the clarification of this question...but i don´t think this would be a good idea.^^
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Magus on <09-19-10/1036:26>
Actually Cas the hardliner gloves do stack it is the SHOCK GLOVES that do not. You either take the Physical Damage from the Hit or the Stun/Electrical Damage from the shock gloves.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: anotherJack on <09-19-10/1051:35>
About this, a question : I've seen a player linking a taser to his retractible claws (not sure I wrote it correctly…), so he added the tasers' damages to the claws damages.
I'm not sure it's okay with the rules…
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Magus on <09-19-10/1053:25>
Nope. He would either do the Taser Stun/Electirical dmg or the Phsyical claw damage not both.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: anotherJack on <09-19-10/1106:43>
There's a clear rule about this, or it's just the (logic, for game balance) extension of the rule applied to the shock gloves ?
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Magus on <09-19-10/1124:00>
There is a clear rule and I will have to find it.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Magus on <09-19-10/1128:49>
Per the FAQ (if you go by these things)

If you punch someone with shock gloves, do you inflict standard punching damage (STR/2) in addition to the glove's 6S DV? If you have gloves on both hands, can you attack with both and do 12S DV?

You can choose to punch/kick/whatever and do regular unarmed damage, or you can choose to touch and zap with the shock gloves, doing only the shock glove damage (not the unarmed damage too). Even with two gloves, the damage is still just 6S DV per glove, but each counts as a separate attack (Two Weapon Melee Combat, p.163, Arsenal).
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: anotherJack on <09-19-10/1139:53>
Thanks, perfect ^^
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Casazil on <09-19-10/1514:13>
And this is why I like my rules lawyer he has all the answers for me  ;D ;D :P
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Glyph on <09-19-10/1601:29>
Actually Cas the hardliner gloves do stack it is the SHOCK GLOVES that do not. You either take the Physical Damage from the Hit or the Stun/Electrical Damage from the shock gloves.
Hardliner gloves do damage of (STR/2+1)P.  Purely by RAW, this would replace the normal unarmed damage code.  Nearly everyone that I know, though, rules it as a +1 bonus, rather than strictly as written.  Sometimes you have to use some common sense.  Some densiplast along your knuckles and the edge of your hand shouldn't suddenly make your adept with critical strike and ceramic bone lacing do less   damage.

There are some questions and balance issues, though.  Some GMs might require adepts to be bare-handed for powers such as killing hands or elemental strike (although you could equally argue that a glove wouldn't be thick enough to impede a magical aura, any more than a layer of clothing protects someone against a manabolt).  GMs might also, as has been mentioned, want to avoid adepts who get a lot of damage boosts, and combine that with getting hardliner glove weapon foci.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: anotherJack on <09-19-10/1713:51>
Sometimes you have to use some common sense.  Some densiplast along your knuckles and the edge of your hand shouldn't suddenly make your adept with critical strike and ceramic bone lacing do less   damage.
… on the other hand, I'm not really convinced they help to make more. Put densiplast on a titane club, I don't think it will really increase its damages.
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <09-19-10/1821:54>
I think it boils down to what you want in your game as both PC and GM. If I had a player who wanted to take the hardliner gloves and add them to his unarmed damage and/or then I would take under consideration. If it helps keep pace with fellow players in combat, then I amay allow it. I would rather adjust RAW with a couple house rules and keep things fun for my group then say "boo hoo no fun for you" and land Lofwyr on there safehouse!
Title: Re: Adept power: critical strike rating
Post by: Glyph on <09-20-10/2209:57>
Sometimes you have to use some common sense.  Some densiplast along your knuckles and the edge of your hand shouldn't suddenly make your adept with critical strike and ceramic bone lacing do less   damage.
… on the other hand, I'm not really convinced they help to make more. Put densiplast on a titane club, I don't think it will really increase its damages.
There is no right answer, but I feel they are different enough that they would stack.  Bone augmentation makes the underlying structure harder, so that you can strike heavier blows, and have more weight behind your attacks.  The gloves add an unyielding rigid surface to the fleshy parts of the hand that you strike with.

Some things I wouldn't  allow to stack, even if RAW doesn't forbid it - combining SURGE bone spikes with thorns, which is redundant in my opinion, or trying to use either with hardliner gloves.