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Nature of Specialization, Focus bonuses

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FastJack

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« Reply #30 on: <11-05-10/2316:54> »
I seem to remember seeing somewhere a general description of splitting dice pools that wasn't part of the ranged combat section, if someone remembers where this is, 10k ¥ and a point of karma.

Quote from: SR4A, p. 158
Melee Attacks
Multiple Targets
     Characters may attack more than one opponent in melee with the same Complex Action, as long as those opponents are within one meter of each other. The attacker’s dice pool is split between each attack, and each attack is handled separately.

Quote from: SR4A, p. 183
Casting Multiple Spells: In some circumstances, a magician may seek to cast multiple spells simultaneously (including multiples of the same spell—for example, targeting two different opponents with a mana bolt in the same action). Multiple spells may be cast with the same Complex Action, but to do so the magician must split her Spellcasting + Magic dice pool between each target. Additionally, the Drain Value for each of the spells is increased by +1 per additional spell (Drain Resistance Tests are also handled separately). Multiple spells are resolved in whatever order the caster desires. The maximum number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least one die.

Medicineman

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« Reply #31 on: <11-06-10/0234:52> »
....
Since the original book, two-thirds of the SR4A and the FAQ all treat Specialization as an addition to the dice and not a dice pool modifier. So, until otherwise, I'll rule it as before the split until something more concrete comes along. I'll not ask y'all to do the same if you disagree, just giving you my reasons for doing so.
What I often perceive here in Germany is that a lot of Players that were used to SR 2nd or 3rd consider a Specialisation as a raise of the original skill .They often write down f.e.
Pistols 5 (Heavy Pistols 7) because they're used to it from former Editions.But thats wrong. The Rules changed in SR4A . Its now Pistols 5 (Heavy Pistols +2) because its simply a modifier. Its just as "wrong" to write down Pistols 5 (Smart 7)
And It might be that because of this.....reminescence (I hope its the right word?) from former Editions that some have trouble accepting the Specialisation as a simple Modifier .

The Rules state  that everything which does not directly raise Attributes( like Cyberware) or the natural Skill(like Adeptpowers or Reflexrecorder or some advantages like natural Athlete)
is a modifier which is to be added or subtracted after splitting the Pool

And Yes I don't like the FAQ but not because I disagree but because the one who did them did'nt bother to check the RAW and this produces a lot of disagreement and explaining here in Germany.
Can you Imagine how often I have to read:"But the FAQ says...."
I don't want to say I hate explaining the right rules to the german folk,but sometimes its getting....cumbersome (lästig in German)to discuss these wrong answers Month after Month.
(and its not easier in English :) )
I would've gladly accepted and welcomed the FAQ If they woul've been in Line with the RAW.As they are now they're a pain in the....Behind

with Dance after Dance
Medicineman
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FastJack

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« Reply #32 on: <11-06-10/0315:14> »
I guess I just consider it not to be a modifier like you said. Instead, I look at it that if a person chooses Heavy Pistols as their specialization, then when they use any other type of pistols, their skill rating is +5. If they are using HP, then their skill rating is +7.

If only we could get somebody that's worked on the game to poke his head in here and give an idea of what the intentions of the rules were. Like a developer or something... ;)

Medicineman

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« Reply #33 on: <11-06-10/0335:43> »
I guess the Intention of the rules are to be simple and playable.
I think that adding all Modifiers (including Specialisation) after is simple.
the FAQ answer only makes it more ....uncofortably (ImO)

But now I have to go to Klingencon(small RPG Convention with about 200 People)
to play for the next 30-36 Hours SR and Fallout RPG

HokaHey
Medicineman
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voydangel

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« Reply #34 on: <11-06-10/1504:19> »
@Medicine Awesome. Have fun at the con.

As for my opinion on the specialization ruling, I have been plying since the tail-end of 1st ed, really started up in 2nd. I have a lot of old assumptions and notions of the rules and I'm constantly having to read, re-read, and re-re-read the SR4A book to knock the antiquated rules ideas from my head to replace them with the new ones. This has been one of those times. After reading all the dice pool and modifier and dice pool modification sections, I have come to the conclusion that Medicine is correct in this case.

The new 4thE 20A rules do state that a dice pool is the skill + Attribute + direct attribute/skill modifiers (such as Improved Ability and Improved Physical Attribute - and other cyber/bioware with similar effects), and that is what would be split when splitting your dice pool. Everything else - such as specializations and combat modifiers (and smartlink if it didn't specifically state otherwise) would be added after the split under the new RAW.

At least that's the way I see/interpret it as of now after my 3rd re-read, and that's how I will run it until I see some errata. Much as I do find the FAQ quite helpful in most situations for clarification, I must admit that there are a lot of flubs in it where it contradicts the RAW - IMO.
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Mäx

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« Reply #35 on: <11-08-10/0443:35> »
Since the original book, two-thirds of the SR4A and the FAQ all treat Specialization as an addition to the dice and not a dice pool modifier.
Whats the difference between these 2, addition to dicepool is by very definition a dicepool modifier.

Or are you saying that speciliasation is an actuall increase to the skill, that would mean that an adept with 6 in a skill and 3 levels of improved ability couldn't take any specialization at all as that would raise the skill over augmented maximim and thats just idiotic and somethink i think they would mention in the rules for specializations.
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FastJack

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« Reply #36 on: <11-08-10/1010:32> »
In my opinion, it's "special". It should be considered part of the skill, but is not limited to the maximum.

Bradd

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« Reply #37 on: <11-09-10/0446:33> »
That's a reasonable opinion, but it's also something that should be spelled out in the rules if true. We already have rules for skill modifiers, and they'd be very limiting if applied to specializations.

Chaemera

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« Reply #38 on: <11-09-10/0640:38> »
Not only do I agree with Bradd on the implications of your opinion, FastJack (and the need to have it spelled out, if so), but, When you say "two-thirds of the SR4A and FAQ all treat Specialization as an addition to the dice", I have to disagree from a RAW perspective.

The only place that treats it as an increase to your skill vice an addition to your dice pool is the FAQ, which, not being an errata is a collection of opinions and interpretations, and doesn't trump the book.

In the book itself, you have two places which talk about how to add in specialization. One of them specifically calls it a dice pool modifier, the other says the following:
Quote from:  SR4A, pg. 121
Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable to the test.
Not only does that not say it adds to the skill, it says it adds to the test which sounds like an informal way of saying dice pool to me. That would make it a dice pool modifier, as page 68 explicitly tells us it is.

Barring an errata, the only option available in the RAW is to treat it as a dice pool modifier.

You're proposition of making a third category, skill modifiers not subject to the limitations of max augmented skill, seems cumbersome compared to treating it as a dice pool modifier, and unnecessary, to boot.
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Trench

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« Reply #39 on: <10-02-11/1052:01> »
OK here was my  original interpretation:

Enhanced articulation and Specialization are Dice Pool modifiers. So they become part of your Dice Pool and then you have to split them. Everything on the appropriate table of Modifiers is applied afterward.

This really only seems right because it limiting to player success.

Here are the 2 most pertinent pieces of data.

1.A dice pool is Skill + Attribute + Modifiers

2. When splitting dice pools, apply Modifiers separately.

I can find no clear distinction between "player bonuses"  and situational modifiers. So im with the Germans. Screw the FAQ. And WTF? to the developers for not providing Complicated Examples and Definite Wording!
« Last Edit: <10-02-11/1128:49> by Trench »
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Deliverator

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« Reply #40 on: <10-02-11/1136:27> »
Quote from: SR4A, p. 121
Neko wants a sneaky character whose specialty is urban areas. Neko takes the Urban specialization for her Infiltration skill. She writes in on her character sheet as Infiltration 5 (Urban + 2). That means she rolls 5 dice (plus attribute) for her skill on Infiltration Tests, and 7 dice (plus attribute) when infiltrating in an urban area.

The key text here is "when infiltrating in an urban area." This to me screams SITUATION. And as even FastJack has said, situational modifiers are, inherently, dice pool modifiers, and as such are added AFTER splitting not before. To me, if the points ever don't apply (except in exigent circumstances such as background count where abilities are removed and removal or destruction of cyberware), they are situational modifiers and must be added AFTER splitting the base pool. So if all else is equal, and you are infiltrating a camp in a desert you don't add the two dice, if you are infiltrating a hospital, you apply the dice AFTER you split the pool. The term "when applicable" dictates it as a situational modifier.

Mason

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« Reply #41 on: <10-02-11/1542:46> »
I believe 'Jack is operating under the assumption that FAQ = RAI, and RAI > RAW. Unless you plan to disabuse him of these assumptions, this thread will go nowhere.

For the record, I agree with most people here in that all modifiers which do not modify the skill or Attribute itself are dice pool modifiers, and that includes specialties.

FastJack

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« Reply #42 on: <10-02-11/1918:06> »
I believe 'Jack is operating under the assumption that FAQ = RAI, and RAI > RAW. Unless you plan to disabuse him of these assumptions, this thread will go nowhere.

For the record, I agree with most people here in that all modifiers which do not modify the skill or Attribute itself are dice pool modifiers, and that includes specialties.
My assumptions are for how I run my games and should be taken that way.

Mason

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« Reply #43 on: <10-02-11/2031:39> »
Hey Jack, why do you have so much negative rep? You are always pretty calm and collected in everything I have seen you post here. Is it just haters who don't like it when you close threads or something?

Deliverator

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« Reply #44 on: <10-02-11/2039:27> »
Probably because people on the internet like to stick it to people they disagree with.