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6E - The Priority Table: Open discussion

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dezmont

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« Reply #60 on: <05-11-21/0829:18> »
And as much as we try to justify that by repeating to ourselfes that "SR is a game about specialization": This creates problems. Players are more likely to start out with highly specialized characters that lack options outside their main skills, and when the time comes to spend karma, speccing into side skills doesn´t really feel like actual growth. Instead of slowly becoming an ace decker or gunslinger, you already start out as one and later just add some frills and ruffles. Yes, you could save up the Karma to raise your optimized main skill from 6 to 7 or higher, but it takes ages to get the karma needed for that one additional die, especially since you now have to raise what had been a whole skill group in 5th Edition (not to mention the bad joke that is 6th Edition training intervalls  :P).

This strikes at a deeper problem with SR way outside the scope of chargen reworks.

Mainly, in SR, most skills are binary pass-fail skills where the fail state actively makes things worse for your team, which are made against target numbers that you can't generally plan ahead for or know about, which are often opaque and not really represented on a non-mechanical level, which can scale infinitely high, and which don't allow you to make choices to reduce the difficulty of the test.

A skill of 3 and an attribute of 3 SHOULD mean something, but the system basically doesn't account for that pool at all unless your opposition is pathetic. A Hatchetman inspired 'samurai who practices decking' isn't able to look at a problem where their target is rolling 10 dice to defend against them and say 'Well trying to do anything flashy is unlikely to work, so I may as well just make an easy roll that gives me a +10 and see what info that gets me first.' Instead their investments are rewarded with getting no value because even attempting the roll is a liability.

Heck, with magic you can't even realistically tell the resistance pool of your target before you go for a spell that may alert them to you, because its hard for GMs to convey perception skills and mental attributes in IC terms that make sense, and most targets have a defense pool high enough that 'dabbling mages' just flub more than half their rolls anyway.

These skills are meant to mean something, people take them because they understand logically someone who is at a semi-pro-level with a skill (which a 3 represents!) should be able to do things with them, like your unarmed 3 SHOULD let you beat up thugs in a barfight. But they don't, because the game is, at its core, really only works at the superhuman level (and its always important to remember even a fairly unoptimized runner is by default at least a little superhuman. Like most of the pre-gens fit in well enough with The Avengers). A 3 skill 3 attribute character can't generally hit what they are shooting at, but it works because SR's attack actions are designed for cyborgs who see in slow motion with robot limbs and artificially enhanced muscles and assumes your not even aiming at all and are just firing blind snapshots. But most actions don't have a 'low risk' option like taking aim to allow your 'average joe' to do something vs a relatively decent host, even if that something isn't hugely impressive.

Fixing this requires a more fundemental rework to how skills/roles work at all (which SR desperately needs, we never have had a comprehensive rework of all of them that attempts to 'modernize' them and actively evaluate what works and what doesn't about the roles, instead its mostly trying to stopgap problems and otherwise leaving them alone despite clear problems with how the roles function and interact) that adds lower bounds to the roles so that basically every skill has an answer to the question 'What can you get on a run consistently that isn't likely to blow up in your face, without huge variance based on how powerful the target is and without requiring pre-knowledge of the run, from a skill of 3, and an attribute of 3?'
« Last Edit: <05-11-21/0831:39> by dezmont »

Multifish2

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« Reply #61 on: <05-11-21/1242:31> »
The Feb 2020 errata fixed the issue of Adepts being able to buy Magic with Metatype Adjustment Points and not getting PowerPoints as a result, but in doing so it created an imbalance. Now Adepts can happily increase Magic with these points and gain Powers which feels like it wasn't the original intent and also giving them an advantage over magicians who can increase Magic, but not receive additional spells.

I was thinking of requiring an Adept to spend 2 Adjustment Points to increase their Magic by 1 (and gain the PowerPoint) to try to restore some of the balance. Would be good to know if anyone can see a problem with that or if there is a known official fix for the problem.

Xenon

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« Reply #62 on: <05-11-21/1329:10> »
Now Adepts can happily increase Magic with these points and gain Powers ... giving them an advantage over magicians who can increase Magic, but not receive additional spells.
Magicians can happily buy spells spells at the low cost of 5 karma per spell ... giving them an advantage over adepts who can not buy power points for just 5 karma each.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #63 on: <05-11-21/1338:28> »
The Feb 2020 errata fixed the issue of Adepts being able to buy Magic with Metatype Adjustment Points and not getting PowerPoints as a result, but in doing so it created an imbalance. Now Adepts can happily increase Magic with these points and gain Powers which feels like it wasn't the original intent and also giving them an advantage over magicians who can increase Magic, but not receive additional spells.

Speaking with a completely personal and in no way "official, endorsed by the powers that be" opinion: in no world are full magicians disadvantaged when compared to adepts.  The reason you can't buy spells in character generation is directly linked to the Priority table.  If you COULD buy spells in chargen, there'd be absolutely no reason to go higher than Magic Priority D (unless you're a Mystic Adept, but just because they have a reason to ever pick A doesn't mean the Magic priority choices are balanced across the board)

I do daresay that if the priority chart worked in a way where there WAS a good reason for every awakened character (not just MysAds) to go higher than D, spells/complex forms probably COULD be allowed to be bought in chargen.

RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Multifish2

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« Reply #64 on: <05-11-21/1343:11> »
Magicians can happily buy spells spells at the low cost of 5 karma per spell ... giving them an advantage over adepts who can not buy power points for just 5 karma each.
Thanks Xenon; that is a really good point. I felt it had unbalanced the priority selection for Adepts a bit, but any small advantage at creation probably will balance out fairly quickly because of this.

Xenon

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« Reply #65 on: <05-11-21/1541:20> »
But you are correct that there is very little reason for an Adept (or Aspected Conjurers) to take anything else than Magic or Resonance priority D (as magic rating is typically always cheaper to increase via metahuman adjustment points).

Then again, as long as you think you can survive on just 2 spells (as well as using spirits! and astral perception and astral projection!) for the first mission you should probably (from a strict min/max karma point of view) go Magic or Resonance priority D as a Full Magician as well (the 6 spells you miss out at chargen will only cost you 30 post chargen karma).

Typically only mystic adepts that should go Magic and Resonance priority A or B (as this give them access to power points during chargen that can only be gained via initiation post chargen).

evileeyore

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« Reply #66 on: <07-12-21/2259:41> »
Min/Max opportunities are good.
I disagree because that "opportunity" is not an opportunity, it's a necessity.

I've seen plenty of disgruntled Players leave a Shadowrun game to never return because of the trap of "not min/maxing" during Priority picks and chargen.

Mainly, in SR, most skills are binary pass-fail skills where the fail state actively makes things worse for your team, which are made against target numbers that you can't generally plan ahead for or know about, which are often opaque and not really represented on a non-mechanical level, which can scale infinitely high, and which don't allow you to make choices to reduce the difficulty of the test.
And this is the second problem with chargen.  Players who know this, go in with a min/max plan, Players who don't know this often make tragically suboptimal choices then find themselves stymied at every turn.  If they're lucky they can buy up something after 4-5 runs (in older editions, I have no idea now how many sessions it would take to bring a 3 Stat to a 5 now), but they'll always be behind the curve of any PCs who were min/maxed.


That's why I enjoyed point buy in 3e so much, it leveled chargen.

Hobbes

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« Reply #67 on: <07-18-21/2349:36> »
Min/Max opportunities are good.
I disagree because that "opportunity" is not an opportunity, it's a necessity.

I've seen plenty of disgruntled Players leave a Shadowrun game to never return because of the trap of "not min/maxing" during Priority picks and chargen.

Mainly, in SR, most skills are binary pass-fail skills where the fail state actively makes things worse for your team, which are made against target numbers that you can't generally plan ahead for or know about, which are often opaque and not really represented on a non-mechanical level, which can scale infinitely high, and which don't allow you to make choices to reduce the difficulty of the test.
And this is the second problem with chargen.  Players who know this, go in with a min/max plan, Players who don't know this often make tragically suboptimal choices then find themselves stymied at every turn.  If they're lucky they can buy up something after 4-5 runs (in older editions, I have no idea now how many sessions it would take to bring a 3 Stat to a 5 now), but they'll always be behind the curve of any PCs who were min/maxed.


That's why I enjoyed point buy in 3e so much, it leveled chargen.

Which is why you shouldn't make characters in a vacuum.  Tables should allow mulligans and help out new players.  Have a session zero and give out let players know what kind of opposition they'll be facing.  And GMs should scale difficulty as appropriate.  Additionally it usually doesn't matter if the Face "only" has 11 Dice in Con when the Decker has 18 in Cracking.  The Face isn't taking on Hosts and the Decker isn't negotiating with the Johnson.  PCs should be able to have their spotlight moments in whatever their schtick is without taking anything away from another PC.

But mostly, set expectations, help out other players, let them respec/mulligan if it's not working for them.