Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: martinchaen on <09-20-13/1354:36>
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Two questions;
1. What actions does the Noise penalty produced by jammers affect?
a. Matrix only
b. Matrix and physical (i.e. any item with a wireless bonus)
Might be a silly question, as the Noise section is in the Matrix chapter, but seeing as how some devices need a Matrix connection to provide certain bonuses I was wondering if those devices would be affected as well.
This would be important in cases like the following scenario;
Say Character A (a street sam) carries a R6 Jammer set to not interfere with any of his own equipment. Character B (a decker) attempts to hack A's commlink (or smartgun, or whatever) in an attempt to cut off his Matrix access to slow A down.
The rules for jammers state that they can be "set [] to not interfere with devices and personas you designate.".
2. When hacking, is the hackers persona on the street sams device, and if so, would he be unaffected by the Noise created by the sam's jammer?
The above is a moot point to me if jammers only affect Matrix actions; a street sam (or adept) geared for close combat could then carry a jammer, run straight for the enemy hacker, and impose Noise on the enemy without (apparent) fear of reprisal, excepting the fact that every single one of the opposing team will likely be throwing lead, mana, and/or electronic signals your way.
Thoughts?
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Clearly physical as well, because it's capable of cutting out wireless bonuses. If the non-distance Noise-Reduction reduced Noise exceeds the Device Rating, the wireless turns off.
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Michael, see, that's what I thought sounded logical too. But I can find no reference in the book about it. In fact, the noise section on page 230 continually refers to "you and your target", implying that noise only applies when making a matrix connection to another device/node. Without making the game horribly complicated (where is the closest node I can connect to?), I don't see an easy way of implementing this mechanic on non-hackers/technomancers. Thoughts?
Examples against noise applying to anything but Matrix actions:
"The most common source of noise is distance from your target, but there are other causes, as listed on the table."
"To figure out how noise is affecting you, start with the noise level from real-world distance to your target and add the noise level from any other applicable situations, then subtract any noise reduction you are using."
"Any positive noise level you have left over is a negative dice pool modifier to your actions. Noise never applies to defense or resistance tests."
The first two specifically mention "you and your target". If a street sam is using wirelessly connected Hydraulic Jacks to run faster, what is the target in this equation? Furthermore, what if the same street sam is using wirelessly enabled Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes; does he get the bonus to REA when defending against an attack (reaction + intuition defense test), but not when calculating initiative?
This seems hopelessly complicated.
Examples of noise counting against all actions:
"There are also spam zones and static zones to deal with. A spam zone has so much traffic (often commercial in nature) that everything gets processed slower. Static zones are areas with either a lot of electromagnetic blockage (like an underground tunnel, labyrinth of sewers, or ruins of a steel office building) or far away from civilization (the middle of a desert, the north pole, adrift in the Pacific, etc.)."
Then there's the table on page 231 that lists noise modifiers, titled "NOISE AND MATRIX USE", which can be read either way (matrix use being "matrix actions", or just anything that uses a matrix connection).
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Michael, see, that's what I thought sounded logical too. But I can find no reference in the book about it.
Page 421, Wireless Bonuses: "If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230)."
By the way, that's why it's interesting that Drones can run Cyberprograms: They can get 2 Noise Reduction that way.
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Aha! Thanks! :D
EDIT:
Wait, so does that mean that a device slaved to a commlink uses the commlinks device rating, or it's own?
And how does that impact the hacker scenario? Does the noise affect his node (aka his link or deck or whatever), or the node he's in (i.e. my cyberware, or my commlink if the 'ware is slaved to the link)?
Jeeez, some of these rules are hella complex...
EDIT2:
And what options do we have to reduce Noise? A data jack seems like it would be a ubiquitous piece of gear for a street sam as a last line of defense. The sattelite uplink specifically states that it only reduces noise from distance, so seems like that's out... Programs can't be run on commlinks, allegedly, so Signal Scrub is out except for the team hacker. Anything else?
EDIT3: I also find the wireless bonuses on page 421 odd, given the statement on page 237; "Matrix actions are special because certain rules apply to them, like noise and the Overwatch Score." Noise obviously applies to other things as well, so why mention it specifically?
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I think Slaving merely means you get to use their attributes vs defense, but still use your own device rating. Thus a Noise rating of 3+ means non-Wired smartguns stop working. (Unless you got the Smartlink in its Scope I guess?)
There was a statement by Aaron on whether Noise is on side A or B once but I forget what it was.
There's a cyberprogram providing Noise Reduction, which is useful for Drones. Maybe use a spydrone for communication measures?
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Hehe, yeah, all of the above would suck for a street sam.
If you cannot use another devices rating for noise calculation, a cyber-heavy street sam could easily be slowed/hindered by a 600 nuyen R3 jammer, or an 800 nuyen R4 jammer if he has a datajack.
Furthermore, If the noise has to apply to the device being hacked as opposed to the hackers devices, the street sam cannot use a jammer himself, as it would hinder his own gear.
And Signal Scrub on a drone would still be subject to other sources of noise level...
To my mind, this definitely needs to be included in errata;
1. Does noise from a jammer affect hacking if the device is excluded from the jammer? (i.e. the jammer affects the hackers persona on his own device, but does not count double for being on the devices of both the hacker and the hackers target)
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in SR5 wireless have higher I/O speed / bandwidth than wires.
if you wireless connect a device with your DNI you often get a wireless bonus
if you connect your device with your DNI with a wire you don't have enough I/O speed / bandwidth to get the wireless bonus.
A jammer increase noise.
Noise reduce speed/bandwidth.
If you have more noise than your device rating then you don't have enough speed/bandwidth to get the wireless bonus. The still transmit wireless information and still receive wireless commands (the device still "work"), it is just the wireless bonus that is shut down by high noise. In the case of a smartgun / smartlink you would still get ammo levels, ammo type, heat buildup, and material stress (which give you +2 accuracy) and you can still use the on-board mini-camera to shoot around corners for -3 without exposing yourself - you just have to spend a simple action to eject clip or change firemode and you don't get + dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon.
So to answer your question:
Noise might affect matrix actions (if it exceeds noise reduction) and if high enough it will also remove wireless bonuses from physical devices.
I am pretty sure that situational noise (such as a jammer) affect deckers at the physical location of their deck or at the physical location of the device they are trying to access. Situational noise does not affect deckers if it is between the deck and the target (except in very rare situations); signals will be routed along a less noisy route to and from the destination. The decker is affected by the highest situational noise rating (at the deck or at the target location).
A jammer set to not affect a physical device still affect a decker trying to hack the physical device unless the decker is physically attached to the device with a cable. Noise never affect the ability to defend. So a jammer set to jam everything will also affect the decker but it will still not reduce a device's defense pool against matrix attacks (but in this case it might jam the device's wireless bonuses if it have any).
The options you have as a decker to reduce noise are
1) using a wireless data jack -1
2) running signal scrub cyberprogram -2
3) using a satellite link (let you connect from static zones and limit noise due to distance to max +5)
(Riggers with an RCC have multiple options to reduce noise)
re. matrix actions.
Noise and overwatch score does not affect resonance actions.
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in SR5 wireless have higher speed/bandwidth than wires.
if you wireless connect a device with your DNI you often get a wireless bonus
if you connect your device with your DNI with a wire you don't have enough speed/bandwidth to get the wireless bonus.
That sounds rather like balooney, honestly. The device itself must be online, yes, but it's not a blind matter of bandwidth.
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1. Does noise from a jammer affect hacking if the device is excluded from the jammer? (i.e. the jammer affects the hackers persona on his own device, but does not count double for being on the devices of both the hacker and the hackers target)
the device icon is excluded and does not suffer noise. The decker persona icon is not merged with the device icon and will suffer noise.
The only two exceptions where a decker persona actually is merged with the device are:
1) if the decker got a control rig headware, the device have a rigger interface, the decker have 3 marks on the device and is jumped into the device.
2) if a decker use the device to jump into the matrix (this is normally his cyberdeck).
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Thanks, Xenon, that's kind of where I'm at.
However, I'm less concerned about how a decker reduces noise compared to how anyone else does it. If what you say about jammers are true (they can affect the decker at the deck location), then my samurai could potentially use a jammer with wireless on to exclude his own gear to introduce noise to the decker (if he is close enough to him).
Also, how the hell does the noise rules make sense for devices with wireless bonuses? So if a Rating 4 jammer is in play in Chicago where the background noise is 2, any device not excluded is going to be affected by Noise 6, enough to disable alphaware wireless bonuses. However, that same noise is NOT enough to affect the device when it's being hacked? Huh?
I'm certainly going to be carrying a jammer at all times, that's for damned sure... Talk about nerfing wireless bonuses, when you can basically "turn off" wireless bonuses of gear worth tens of thousands of nuyen with an 800 nuyen jammer and a short sprint...
EDIT:
Michael, seconded.
Xenon, source for that statement? I'm having trouble finding rules that specify how noise affects a persona on another device.
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That sounds rather like balooney, honestly. The device itself must be online, yes, but it's not a blind matter of bandwidth.
It might be, but I will stick to it until I hear a better fluff explanation why you don't get the same benefit if you connect the device to the matrix with a wire...
Do you have a better theory Michael?
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However, that same noise is NOT enough to affect the device when it's being hacked? Huh?
A device does not add situational or distance noise modifiers when taking a defense test against a matrix attack for the same reason you don't add environmental modifiers (like heavy rain or glare) when taking a defense test against a ranged attack...
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Yes, my theory is "we made it like this to give Hackers more openings to hack people through", like they stated in their development blog.
As for fluff explanation: I/O is the lengthiest part of calculations, having to constantly communicate with a serial device will not give you the fast calculations you need and you'll have to constantly write stuff, making it hard to run your math. Now being able to run the math in parallel means you can get more data processed than with your own device. Unfortunately, if it has to be run through a wire protocol, you are involving multiple layers of communication and thus get a delay that no longer is in time to get things done, since you are then using 4 I/O steps rather than 2.
@Martin: The background noise is only 2 in the CZ, not in all of Chicago, and Jammers reduce in rating in range.
By the way: You should carry a jammer with you anyway, since that way you can block wireless grenades. Doesn't help against motion sensor grenades though.
As for wireless bonuses: I still consider part of them utter bullcrap that shouldn't be in the game to begin with. -_- Smartguns, Laser Sights and Visual/Audio Enhancements included.
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Fair enough.
Edited my post to:
in SR5 wireless have higher I/O speed / bandwidth than wires.
if you wireless connect a device with your DNI you often get a wireless bonus
if you connect your device with your DNI with a wire you don't have enough I/O speed / bandwidth to get the wireless bonus.
:D
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I wouldn't say wires have poorer I/O. However, if you have to connect to the Matrix through another machine, you're stacking layers. If you want to talk with your PC downstairs and it has to go through a computer in Australia first, you'll have a bigger delay.
Of course why that would get in the way of things such as the medicinal wireless bonuses I don't know.
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Michael; the fluff explanation doesn't really work, though. Wired forms of communication has less overhead than wireless (come on, 300+ Gbps fiberoptics vs 40Gbps wireless (http://compnetworking.about.com/b/2013/05/23/40-gbps-2013-wireless-speed-record.htm)), unless this has changed in 2075 somehow.
I agree on the wireless bonuses, but what gets me is that while a slaved device supposedly uses the master device for defense test, it somehow doesn't use it to connect to the matrix at large? How the hell does that make any sense whatsoever?
If I have a Rating 6 commlink, which could conceivably connect to another Rating 6 commlink 100km away (Noise 5), are we seriously suggesting that my smartgun, which is slaved to the commlink, wouldn't use said commlink to connect to the matrix (even if it had access to the matrix locally)? I would VERY much like an official comment on this, at it could potentially have a huge impact on game mechanics critical to matrix users and combat oriented characters both...
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Michael; the fluff explanation doesn't really work, though. Wired forms of communication has less overhead than wireless (come on, 300+ Gbps fiberoptics vs 40Gbps wireless (http://compnetworking.about.com/b/2013/05/23/40-gbps-2013-wireless-speed-record.htm)), unless this has changed in 2075 somehow.
You're still adding a second set of overhead, which likely results in the answers becoming too slow to provide you with bonus dice. Plus you're going through an OS, rather than just dealing with a device made solely for running this.
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I'd argue that that overhead (latency) doesn't matter; the communication between to computers on a LAN today is typically less than 1ms, WAY less than the time it takes to execute a free action in SR5 (<1 second, or 1000ms). Even if you routed your smartgun through every piece of gear you had, you'd be unlikely to reach latency levels that high.
And again, these are fluff arguments. The rules indicate that a slaved device uses the master device's stats for defense test, so why is it such a logical leap to also think that a slaved device would be capable of using the masters Device Rating for calculating Noise Purposes? Especially when Noise doesn't even affect said device when making defense tests? There's just a huge disconnect (heh, pun intended) as I see it between wireless and wired connectivity in SR5.
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Yes, I gave a fluff argument because Xenon wanted me to give a fluff explanation. If you want a rule explanation on the big gap:
Yes, my theory is "we made it like this to give Hackers more openings to hack people through", like they stated in their development blog.
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By the way: You should carry a jammer with you anyway, since that way you can block wireless grenades. Doesn't help against motion sensor grenades though.
(Detonating a wireless triggered grenade is not a wireless bonus -except if you use the "detonate grenade"-button at the side of a wireless grenade launcher).
...unless this has changed in 2075 somehow.
60+ years from now i'd imagine quite a bit will change in the computer and telecom industry.
I agree on the wireless bonuses, but what gets me is that while a slaved device supposedly uses the master device for defense test, it somehow doesn't use it to connect to the matrix at large? How the hell does that make any sense whatsoever?
Think of it like if you have a bluetooth device connected to your laptop. If a hacker with the right tools and skills come within signal range (a few meters) he will spot your bluetooth device. There is no need to first hack your laptop to access the device. He can hack the bluetooth device directly.
It work the same way in SR5's version of Matrix 2.0 -Everything is wireless. All devices connect and route traffic for all other devices within signal range (for most devices this is about 100m) forming mesh network. In normal case you can of course only access devices you own or that you have been granted access to, but just as the bluetooth example above, there are people with the right tools and skills to hack and access your device directly. Without first having to hack your commlink.
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If I have a Rating 6 commlink, which could conceivably connect to another Rating 6 commlink 100km away (Noise 5), are we seriously suggesting that my smartgun, which is slaved to the commlink, wouldn't use said commlink to connect to the matrix (even if it had access to the matrix locally)?
What?
If your smartgun is wireless ON it will communicate with every device within 100m (which will communicate with every device within 100m which will communicate with every device within 100m etc. which mean your smartgun is on the mesh network we like to call The Matrix). It will also communicate with your Data Jack, your DNI and your smartlink in your cybereyes. All this mean you get the wireless bonus (eject clip or change firemode with speed of thought and a dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon)
That does not change if you slave the smartgun to a commlink or not......
(It did in SR4. In SR4 you slaved your device to a PAN and to access the device you first had to hack the PAN. This is not the case in SR5)
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Xenon Sure, but basic laws of physics? Even with magic in the world, light is still the fastest phenomenon known to man; are you telling me that you think the developers intended to handwave a "no, we made wireless faster than the speed of light" solution?
While I agree that the device can be hacked directly (I don't think I've ever stated otherwise, so not sure why you felt the need to point that out), what I'm focusing on in this thread is the fact that apparently a device in a PAN cannot use it's master device to connect to the matrix at all. So while a device can use the stats of it's master device for defense tests (implying that you do in fact hack through the commlink, or that there is some sort of two-way communication between the two devices), tests that are not even affected by noise, that same device cannot use its master device rating to connect to the matrix in general? That, quite simply, sounds like a load of bollocks to me.
EDIT:
Xenon; that was an abstract example to show the potential signal strength of a Rating 6 device; if you were in a barren wasteland with no other mesh network devices between you and another commlink, two rating 6 commlinks are considered to be in mutual signal range (handshake or whatever it's called in SR5) as long as they are within 100km of each other...
My point is this; if I have a smartgun (rated at DR2), and that smartgun is meshed with my commlink (DR6), the smartgun should be able to connect to the matrix through my commlink if there are no other devices in range (>100 meters). Agreed?
So why is it that y'all seem to think that a smartgun can't get a matrix connection through a commlink (as long as both are owned by the same person, presumably), when that is EXACTLY how mesh networks function? Thus, using the DR of the master in your PAN makes sense when calculating noise, because all of your wireless gadgets only need to connect to the closes device (your commlink) which then connects to the next closest device, and so on and so forth until it hits "the matrix"...
To clarify, because I don't think this has gotten through:
I am NOT talking about hacking, I am talking about noise potentially knocking out wireless bonuses on items that should be able to connect to another device of higher rating but within mutual signal range to get it's Matrix connection. Is it still vulnerable to hacking; yes, but that's what the higher rated device is there for.
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...are you telling me that you think the developers intended to handwave a "no, we made wireless faster than the speed of light" solution?
How would you explain that you get a wireless bonus if you connect your smartgun wireless to your data jack but not if you connect your smartgun with a cable ;)
While I agree that the device can be hacked directly (I don't think I've ever stated otherwise, so not sure why you felt the need to point that out), what I'm focusing on in this thread is the fact that apparently a device in a PAN cannot use it's master device to connect to the matrix at all.
Because that is SR4
In SR5 devices connect to the matrix on their own.
Even if you have a master slave coupling the device will still route traffic for other devices.
The device will still transmit it's information to everyone that have access to listen to it.
To get wireless bonus the device need to be wireless ON. It is right there on p.421
If the device is wireless ON it will also be connected to the Matrix and it can also be hacked from the Matrix.
...tests that are not even affected by noise...
A defense test when you are shot by a ranged attack is not affected by ranged environmental modifiers, such as fog or dim light.
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By the way: You should carry a jammer with you anyway, since that way you can block wireless grenades. Doesn't help against motion sensor grenades though.
(Detonating a wireless triggered grenade is not a wireless bonus -except if you use the "detonate grenade"-button at the side of a wireless grenade launcher).
Even if a strict reading of RAW would allow detonating wireless grenades, I call balooney. You need a wireless connection and if the noise exceeds the device rating, the grenade cannot communicate anymore. Unless you throw wired grenades.
@Martin: Because they don't want us to.
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Even if a strict reading of RAW would allow detonating wireless grenades, I call balooney. You need a wireless connection and if the noise exceeds the device rating, the grenade cannot communicate anymore. Unless you throw wired grenades.
A device rating 2 commlink can still make a phone call to the other side of the world even if there is snow. The sound quality will not be the best but all wireless devices suddenly does not stop transmitting just because it is snowing.
The only place in the book that mention anything about not working when noise exceed device rating is p.421 "Wireless Bonuses" and this pass is talking about additional wireless functionality. It talk about that your device need to be wireless ON. That it need access to the Matrix to get additional wireless functionality. That you don't get the wireless functionality it if you enter a static zone. That you don't get the wireless functionality if noise rating is greater than the items device rating...
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Before I respond to that, please clarify what your actual point is regarding grenades. Your tangents and opinions are distracting and making it unclear what you think the rules say and what you think they should say.
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Xenon; Umm, you can get the wireless bonus if the smartgun is connected to the data jack as well? Anyway, that's a WHOLE other dicussion...
Show me where it is stated that each device HAS to connect to the matrix on it's own, I dare you :)
From pages 215 and 216:
"commlink (‘link):The handheld or worn personal computer used by nearly everyone to access wireless services"
Used to access "wireless services", which could imply a multitude of things.
"device: A piece of gear that performs functions integral to a network"
Including networking other devices...
"drone:An unmanned vehicle that can be controlled via direct wireless link or through the Matrix"
Implies that a drone can be connected to directly or through the matrix (aka mesh)
"jackpoint:Any physical location that provides access to the Matrix through plugging in with a wired connection."
Indicates that a wireless connection is NOT needed to access the Matrix between devices
"meshed:(slang) Online, connected to the Matrix."
See above; you do not have to be wireless to be meshed...
And then on page 219, which gives us a little bit of insight into topology:
"PANS
Most individuals have multiple electronic devices on them at once, and having icons for each one show up would provide too much visual clutter in the Matrix. Often, what shows up instead is an icon representing an individual’s personal area network. This icon often looks similar to the physical device that serves as master for the network, such as a commlink, but individuals will sometimes choose a design or logo that means something to them (such as sports team logos, Concrete Dreams album covers, or corporate designs). Some devices are not merged into the single PAN icon; if an individual is carrying a wireless-enabled gun—or any other wireless device that might kill you—it will show up separately so that it can be identified rapidly. Unless, of course, the user has gone to the trouble to hide that icon, but that’ll be covered later."
Indicating that as per the network definition above, PANs could be used to connect devices to the Matrix, "if the user has gone to the trouble".
I do not see why some of you seem to think that SR4 = Mesh Topology, and that SR5 != Mesh Topology, but I can find no evidence to the contrary in the sourcebook as the overarching hierarchy of the new Matrix is not clearly defined.
As such, we can debate this topic forever, until one of the people who actually wrote the book can tell us what is and is not possible. I for one am going to go with the fact that devices can network, and as such can use each other to connect to the matrix, EVEN WHEN WIRED, as per the "jackpoint" entry. If you disagree, that's totally cool, but utlimately it'll be up to each GM to make a call on this one because the rules are quite clearly ambiguous. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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The device must have its wireless mode on and be able to have access to the Matrix to get its wireless bonus. Period. I don't like it either, but that's how the rules are. There's no ambiguity, since it's clearly written on page 421. However, there is PLENTY of space for people to disagree with it and GMs to houserule it. But disagreeing with a rule doesn't mean the rule is ambiguous.
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Michael, but that's exactly my argument. Let me illustrate, and make sure I've understood your argument as well.
In your view, if a smartgun (DR2) is affected by Noise 3, it looses it's wireless bonus; correct?
In my view, if a smartgun (DR2) is affected by Noise 3, it is very likely that it can connect to the commlink on my PAN (0 noise from distance, at the very least, and few of the other modifiers apply).
Thus, if my Commlink is DR6, and I have a datajack, Noise would have to equal 8 for the smartgun to lose it's Matrix connectivity and thus it's wireless bonus.
That pretty much sums up my stance.
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Before I respond to that, please clarify what your actual point is regarding grenades. Your tangents and opinions are distracting and making it unclear what you think the rules say and what you think they should say.
That if detonating a wireless grenade is not a wireless bonus (in some cases it is) then you can detonate it wireless even if it is snowing.
Xenon; Umm, you can get the wireless bonus if the smartgun is connected to the data jack as well?
You can't get a wireless bonus if you turn your smartgun wireless OFF and use a cable between your smartgun and your data jack. If you have wireless ON it will be connected to your data jack (but it will by definition also be connected to the rest of the Matrix)
Show me where it is stated that each device HAS to connect to the matrix on it's own, I dare you :)
It is getting tiresome to feed you page references Martin ;)
p.421 "Wireless Bonuses"
When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description...This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix...These benefits only apply when the item’s wireless mode is on.
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...0 noise from distance, at the very least...
The device lose it's additional wireless functionality if there is a Noise Rating from other sources than distance that is greater than the item’s Device Rating. Noise due to distance does not matter when talking about additional wireless functionality.
It does not matter if your smartgun can get access to Matrix through your commlink or not since if you have a cable to your commlink then your smartgun is not wireless ON and you don't get a wireless bonus anyway.
If your smartgun is wireless ON then it will be connected to your commlink, your data jack, the hostile deckers cyberdeck, the Matrix etc etc but if there is enough noise (in this case between your smartgun and your data jack) then you will still not get the wireless bonus...
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To further illustrate my point about noise, let's look at possible modifiers:
Distance:
Directly connected (any distance) 0
Up to 100 meters 0
101-1,000 meters (1 km) 1
1,001-10,000 meters (10 km) 3
10,001-100,000 meters (100 km) 5
Greater than 100 km 8
Situations:
Dense foliage: 1 per 5 meters
Faraday cage: no signal, action blocked
Fresh water: 1 per 10 cm
Jamming: 1 per hit on Jam Signals actions
Metal-laced earth or wall: 1 per 5 meters
Salt water: 1 per centimeter
Spam zone or static zone: Rating
Wireless negation (e.g., wallpaper or paint): Rating
Of all of these, the only two I could see affecting two devices on my person would be saltwater (if device a and device b are more than 3 cm apart, noise = 3), and fresh water (if device a and device b are more than 30 cm apart, noise = 3). In other cases, both situational modifiers and distance modifiers would not affect two objects on a single person, and thus would allow a low DR device to connect to the Matrix through a device with DR => Noise.
Now, if noise is sufficient to drown out even a DR6 commlink, you're obviously hosed...
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The device lose it's additional wireless functionality if there is a Noise Rating from other sources than distance that is greater than the item’s Device Rating.
It does not matter if your smartgun can get access to Matrix through your commlink or not since if you have a cable to your commlink then your smartgun is not wireless ON and you don't get a wireless bonus anyway.
And this is where you misunderstand me (first of all) and we fundamentally disagree (second of all); I said nothing about wires in this case, and I obviously think that the device can still connect to another device that is connected to the Matrix.
How else would you explain what "The Matrix" is? There is no single "Device in the sky" that you need to connect your smartgun to; by virtue of how The Matrix functions, EVERY device is THE Matrix. As long as my device can connect to at least ONE other device that has matrix connectivity, that device is connected to The Matrix.
If your smartgun is wireless ON then it will be connected to your commlink, your data jack, the hostile deckers cyberdeck, the Matrix etc etc
YES! Exactly! As long as my smartgun is wireless ON it WILL connect to my commlink, and if a Noise 3 situation occurs it would have to specifically apply to the device (i.e. more than 3cm away from another device with matrix connectivity while submerged in saltwater).
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Why would you never be affected by:
"Jamming 1 per hit on Jam Signals actions"
And you kinda forgot:
City downtown 1
Abandoned building 1
Sprawl downtown 2
Abandoned neighborhood 2
Barrens 2
Major event 3
Advertising blitz 3
Rural area 3
Abandoned underground area 3
Heavy rain 3
Snow 3
Commercial area in a city 4
Wilderness 4
Severe storm 4
Commercial area in a sprawl 5
Remote place with satellite access only 5
Massive gathering 6
During widespread emergency 6
Remote, enclosed place (cave, desert ruin) 6
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YES! Exactly! As long as my smartgun is wireless ON it WILL connect to my commlink, and if a Noise 3 situation occurs it would have to specifically apply to the device (i.e. more than 3cm away from another device with matrix connectivity while submerged in saltwater).
3cm away from another device within matrix connectivity while submerged in saltwater is one.
Outside while snowing is another
Being out in the wilderness is a third
Being in the area of effect of a jammer is a fourth.....
We just listed a lot of noise sources. Take your pick mate.
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Martin: But then you're no longer talking about RAW, but houserules. And as much sense as those may make, they aren't the rules. So if you want to debate houserules and houserules alone, that's fine by me, but until you explicitly state so I will assume you are actually talking about what the rules say. And under the rules, not only must the device connect by itself, your own network still suffers from spam or static and an environmental noise of 3 will kill your wireless smartgun.
Before I respond to that, please clarify what your actual point is regarding grenades. Your tangents and opinions are distracting and making it unclear what you think the rules say and what you think they should say.
That if detonating a wireless grenade is not a wireless bonus (in some cases it is) then you can detonate it wireless even if it is snowing.
So to be exact, you are saying that you can have a DNI to a wireless grenade that is not damaged by Noise, correct? And that wireless functionality cannot be jammed unless it is explicitly stated as their wireless bonus?
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Jamming is another, good call.
Spam and static zones are others, but they apply equally to everyone and all devices, so are not relevant to the discussion at hand (which is, to my mind anyway, about noise affecting one device but not another).
The jammer you listed, which is how this topic started, is a perfect example.
A R3 jammer is enough to overcome the smartgun, but not a R6 commlink; if you have communication between the commlink and the smartgun then the smartgun should still be able to access the Matrix through the commlink, as per the whole mesh topology idea. Particularly as "The Matrix" is the abstract of every device out there, and not just a single device.
Since you brought it up, though, I think it's odd that a sattelite link would not give you Matrix access in a wilderness/rural area; I've used satlinks in Afghanistan (which is plenty fucking wild and/or rural), and they work just fine... :D
Michael; except that it is not stated in RAW that a device has to connect to "The Matrix" by itself. The way the matrix is designed is exactly as I've described several times, which is as RAW, and that is that every device is the matrix. So my smartgun doesn't need to connect to some obscure device, it just needs to connect to the closest device that does have access to the matrix.
The rules state:
"Because nearly every piece of gear and ’ware is wireless capable, it means nearly every piece of gear and cyberware benefits dramatically from being “meshed” into your wireless personal area network and the Matrix as a whole." (page 421)
So, each device in my PAN can speak to each other, and through each other, to the rest of the Matrix. Agreed?
"When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description. This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone." (page 421)
When the device has access to the Matrix. It does not specify HOW this access is obtained, merely that it needs to have it. However, the previous statement specifically describes the device being "meshed" with your PAN as being connected to the Matrix.
And yes, a wireless static zone could possibly negate such connections. This is where I think universal access cables come in, though. More on that below.
"If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230)." (page 421)
Again, Noise has to exceed Device Rating specifically; static zones would do it, as would some of the other situational noise ratings (like saltwater), but not all of them.
"These benefits only apply when the item’s wireless mode is on." (page 421)
Nowhere is it stated that a device cannot be wireless on AND have a universal access cable attached...
Now, going back to sattelite links, I just noticed that the Spam and Static zones mention these;
"Commercial area in a sprawl/Remote place with satellite access only: Noise Rating 5" (page 231)
That has got to imply that a sattelite link would negate this type of noise rating, surely? Is the wording of sattelite link just poorly worded?
Also, on wired connections (page 232):
"Devices have a universal data connector, which is the global standard for connecting devices together for power and data exchange. If you have a cable, you can connect to the device directly."
"When you use a direct connection, you ignore all noise modifiers and modifiers due to being on different grids or the public grid. It’s just you and the device."
This is important, I feel, because it doesn't state that the device somehow is disconnected from the rest of the Matrix when you jack in with a UDC, it just states that for the purposes of communicating between you (your device) and it (the other device) there is no noise and you ignore grid modifiers.
How does that preclude an item from obtaining a Wireless bonus by "being connected to the matrix" through a UDC to a device that is not affected by the Noise Rating? It doesn't, at least not by RAW.
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Michael; except that it is not stated in RAW that a device has to connect to "The Matrix" by itself.
Yes it is. The item must have its wireless mode on. If it is in a Noise Rating above its Device Rating (barring distance), the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality. Which means no wireless mode, so no wireless bonus.
Look, I understand you don't like it. But arguing that the rules do not state what they actually explicitly say, gets us nowhere. Arguing from fluff and descriptions while ignoring the repeatedly-quoted page solves nothing, all it means is we all get more frustrated.
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So to be exact, you are saying that you can have a DNI to a wireless grenade that is not damaged by Noise, correct?
Can you clarify what you mean by bold above?
And that wireless functionality cannot be jammed unless it is explicitly stated as their wireless bonus?
Jammer have a fluff text that say it block wireless and radio communication (and that is what you normally use them for in real life so I agree that it make perfect sense and might even also be RAI that you can use them to shut down wireless devices) but as far as rules and RAW go I can only see that jammer increase noise and noise make stuff slower and act as a negative dice pool modifier (except for defense or resistance tests).
Noise can also, in addition to the negative dice pool modifier, also prevent wireless bonus (if it is greater than the device rating).
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Michael, see my edit. I quoted all the relevant sections of the rules. I'm adding page numbers now.
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@Martin: Page 421 is explicit. Too much Noise -> no wireless functionality -> no wireless mode on -> no wireless bonus. All you have done is provided fluff that helps argue a case that you SHOULD be able to use a wire with a commlink and thus have decent grounds for a houserule. However, page 421 is all the RAW relevant here. So no, the rules are clear here. All that is debatable is whether it is fair, not whether it is RAW.
@Xenon: So to summarize our disagreement:
- You say only wireless bonuses are blocked by Noise, not other wireless functions. So exploding a wireless grenade through DNI is still possible since the wireless bonus only is detonating it without DNI.
- I say the loss of wireless functionality means ALL wireless functions are out, including but not limited to wireless bonuses. As such, Noise will block grenades/commlinks/drones/smartguns if there's enough of it.
Correct?
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@Xenon: So to summarize our disagreement:
- You say only wireless bonuses are blocked by Noise, not other wireless functions. So exploding a wireless grenade through DNI is still possible since the wireless bonus only is detonating it without DNI.
- I say the loss of wireless functionality means ALL wireless functions are out, including but not limited to wireless bonuses. As such, Noise will block grenades/commlinks/drones/smartguns if there's enough of it.
Correct?
Just to hop in on this one... not to speak for Xenon, but the viewpoint that is expressed above as his is how Aaron has described it. Usual caveats apply.
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then, Michael, because I don't think there is anything explicit about "This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix", and this is not clearly defined. "Most of the time unless your GM says so" is pretty much the clearest definition I can tell, because the Noise rules are ambiguous as all get-out, referencing situations which can apply to some but not all devices in the situation...
What's really needed to clear this up from my perspective is an answer to the following question:
"Can a device that is slaved to a PAN use the Device Rating of it's master to determine Noise modifiers and whether or not Wireless functionality is temporarily lost?"
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Spam and static zones are others, but they apply equally to everyone and all devices, so are not relevant to the discussion at hand
They are very relevant.
If there is more noise than your smartgun can handle then you don't get wireless bonus
It does not matter if you have a high rating commlink.
A R3 jammer is enough to overcome the smartgun, but not a R6 commlink;
If there is more noise than your smartgun can handle then you don't get wireless bonus
It does not matter if you have a high rating commlink.
Since you brought it up, though, I think it's odd that a sattelite link would not give you Matrix access in a wilderness/rural area; I've used satlinks in Afghanistan (which is plenty fucking wild and/or rural), and they work just fine... :D
Using a satellite link give you a flat 5 noise no matter how far away you are (distance) or how remote (static zone).
You can make your phone call, just you don't get the wireless bonus if noise is greater than your device rating...
Michael; except that it is not stated in RAW that a device has to ...
To get wireless bonus your device need to be wireless on. It must be connected to the matrix. It must not suffer more noise than it's device rating.
And yes, a wireless static zone would negate such connections. This is where I think universal access cables come in, though.
To get wireless bonus your device need to be wireless on. It must be connected to the matrix. It must not suffer more noise than it's device rating.
That has got to imply that a sattelite link would negate this type of noise rating, surely? Is the wording of sattelite link just poorly worded?
That mean you get a flat 5 noise rating if you hack through a satellite link no matter how far away you are (other side of the world) or how remote you are (middle of the desert).
- You say only wireless bonuses are blocked by Noise, not other wireless functions. So exploding a wireless grenade through DNI is still possible since the wireless bonus only is detonating it without DNI.
- I say the loss of wireless functionality means ALL wireless functions are out, including but not limited to wireless bonuses. As such, Noise will block grenades/commlinks/drones/smartguns if there's enough of it.
Yes
According to RAW i can't find anything about noise blocking communication, it only seem to add a negative dice pool modifier (and it prevent additional wireless functionality listed under wireless bonus).
(I personally agree with you that enough ECM should have the potential to block communication. I just can't find any rules for it)
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Wait. The entry for sattelite link does not specify "Noise Reduction", is specifically states:
"This link limits Noise due to distance to –5."
Noise due to Spam/Static zones are Situations, not Distance.
I've modified my question on the Hot Patch errata thread to include relevant questions for this discussion. Until then, I think we've sufficiently exhausted the issue, at least from my view.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12106.msg237793#msg237793
End of line: GM decision, as with most things. Even in SRM, it seems.
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then, Michael,[...]. "Most of the time unless your GM says so"
Yes, that is clearly the only option, and as such the end of this debate. After all, if we cannot agree on what RAW is, then it's impossible to discuss it. And no, the GM call has nothing to do with ambiguous rules. It simply means that the GM decides when there's actual background Noise.
@Xenon: I am going with enough noise fully eliminating all wireless functionality, including communication myself. The rules state wireless functionality, not wireless bonuses. As such all wireless functionality is gone.
The alternative reading, by the way, means there is no reason for a Rigger to ever provide a Drone with Noise Reduction unless they're Jumping In. Nor would smartguns lose their connection with the smartlink, nor can a team communicate with their commlinks anymore. This last part, by the way, is contradicted by Ashes: In there, they only can communicate through infrared and wires because of jamming.
So honestly, I think the impossible consequences of another reading prove it's not supposed to be read like that. There's no way Jammers are worthless against Commlinks, Drone Control and Wireless Grenades.
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Michael, agreed.
Just to see if I've understood you correctly; your reading of RAW is:
1. That a Wireless bonus "only applies when the device has access to the Matrix"
2. That "if there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality"
3. That "these benefits only apply when the item’s wireless mode is on"
Correct?
Would you agree that my questions in the Hot Patch would be sufficient to address the dispute we're having on when wireless bonuses apply? If not, please feel free to add to them.
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Wait. The entry for sattelite link does not specify "Noise Reduction", is specifically states:
"This link limits Noise due to distance to –5."
Noise due to Spam/Static zones are Situations, not Distance.
Sigh...Are we going to discuss satellite links now...?? :D
Satellite Links It let you connect to the matrix from places where no local wireless networks exists. This is the primary reason why you use a Satellite Link.
Using a Satellite Link IS a Static Zone situation.
Check p.231 Static Zone modifier: "Remote place with satellite access only": Noise Rating 5
If you are in the middle of a desert, the north pole, adrift in the pacific etc. you will not have matrix access at all -unless you bring a satellite link.
In addition Satellite Link have the added benefit to limit Noise due to distance to -5, as per the description of the device at p.439
That mean you get a flat 5 noise rating if you hack through a satellite link no matter how remote you are (even if you are in a middle of the desert; which would normally totally prevent access to the matrix) and you never get more than 5 noise due to distance no matter how far away you are (other side of the world; which would normally give you 8 noise).
@Xenon: I am going with enough noise fully eliminating all wireless functionality, including communication myself. The rules state wireless functionality, not wireless bonuses. As such all wireless functionality is gone.
The alternative reading, by the way, means there is no reason for a Rigger to ever provide a Drone with Noise Reduction unless they're Jumping In. Nor would smartguns lose their connection with the smartlink, nor can a team communicate with their commlinks anymore. This last part, by the way, is contradicted by Ashes: In there, they only can communicate through infrared and wires because of jamming.
So honestly, I think the impossible consequences of another reading prove it's not supposed to be read like that. There's no way Jammers are worthless against Commlinks, Drone Control and Wireless Grenades.
I have a slightly different approach at my table. I don't think snow, heavy rain or background noise etc. should cause augmented reality to fail. That entire mesh networks (the Matrix) will stop routing traffic.
However Jammer on p.441 state that they "floods the airwaves with electromagnetic jamming signals to block out wireless and radio communication."
In my opinion this is the primary reason why you use a Jammer. A secondary reason is that it also provide Noise rating -even if it fail to completely block out wireless and radio communication.
ECM might be something future books introduce, but we already have the Electronic Warfare skill (which you can use for disruption and even have a Jamming specialization) and we already have Jammers. We also have rules that cover ECCM in the rigger chapter (which let you use Electronic Warfare to get better signals and avoid being jammed - the skill even have a Communications specialization).
This is how my ECM house rules look like:
When you use a jammer for the purpose to disrupt wireless and radio communication you make a Electronic Warfare(Jamming) + Logic [Jammer Rating] test or a Electronic Warfare(Jamming) + Logic [Attack] (if you use a cyberdeck as a jamming device) and note number of hits. This will act as a ECM rating for all devices in the AoE. Note that as Jammer Rating is reduced over distance so might your hits as Jammer Rating act as a limit - and with this the current ECM rating.
All noise reduction in the book (wireless data jack, signal scrub, taking a complex action using Electronic Warefare(Communications) + Logic [Data Processing] on a RCC, increasing Noise Reduction at the cost of Sharing on a RCC etc) will provide equal amount of ECCM rating.
ECCM rating is added on top of the device's rating where it run for the purpose of jamming all wireless and radio signals.
If ECM rating is equal or greater than a device's rating (or rather it's current Data Processing rating which is normally equal to it's device rating) + ECCM then you jammed a device's all wireless and radio signals. To block communication between two sources, ECM rating need to be equal or greater than the highest rating.
Or if you turn it around; Target device's rating + it's ECCM act as a threshold on your Electronic Warefare test.
A lot of text; but basically you roll electronic warefare + logic [jammer] and if you get 2 hits you will block all communications from almost all devices, including mental commands to detonate a wireless triggered grenade if the thrower use trodes, but you need 3 hits to block wireless DNI communication from users that have a data jack as the data jack provide 1 point of ECCM.
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In all fairness, I am debating RAW, not houserules. And I am debating your reading because if followed it means jammers would be rather worthless. You'd only suffer a Noise penalty from jamming if jumping in, merely instructing the drones and seeing through their eyes would then not be a problem at all. A car wouldn't actually lose its connection to GridGuide because they don't have it listed as wireless bonus. Communication would still be possible with cheapass commlinks even when blanketed by Rating 10 jammers. Wireless grenades would not be vulnerable to jamming. This would mean Noise is solely an anti-hacker measure and jammers are worthless against other purposes, aside from the small chance you cost your opponent some dice.
So my statement was: Given the severe consequences of reading the elimination of wireless functionality as SOLELY the elimination of wireless bonuses, despite wireless functionality being its own section and the rules not stating bonuses but functionality there, not only does the language used eliminate this alternative reading and make clear it is not RAW, the consequences of following this alternative reading are at a level where it is clear this would never be RAI.
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The whole Wireless bonus chapter use nothing BUT the phrase [additional] [wireless] functionality. Why do you assume that when they talk about [wireless] functionally and noise they suddenly mean the ability to wireless communicate at all....? It simply does not make sense (to me) that they would talk about something else than wireless bonus in the wireless bonus chapter.
I would agree with you if they said it in the noise chapter. Or in the description of jammers. Or a general wireless chapter. Or the description of electronic warfare skill. Or even in the rigger or matrix chapter.
But when they talk about wireless functionality in the wireless bonus chapter they simply mean the additional wireless functionality you get that is listed as a wireless bonus in the description of the device.
When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description. This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone. If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230).
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I assume it because that's what the rules have stated wireless functionality entails.[spoiler]The world is wireless. Almost every device you can
think of has been computerized and equipped with a
wireless link, including your microwave, your gun, maybe
even your eyes. Every gear item has a wireless-enabled
computer built in. Even non-electronic items
without any moving parts have built-in computers, so
now your pants can store your favorite music (and tell
you when it’s time to do the laundry). The few devices
that are non-wireless are most likely tagged with RFID
tags (p. 440).
Wireless-enabled items can prevent theft or monitor
the item’s functionality and alert the user of any malfunctions
via their personal area network. For instance, in bone
lacing, sensor tags are a convenient way of monitoring for
stress fractures and other complications. A hacker can’t
hack into your bone lacing and break your bones, but a
hacker can tell your bone lacing that your bones are broken,
causing your bone lacing to tell your commlink to call
DocWagon, or tell your medkit that you need painkillers.
Every item being wireless means that nearly every
item has a device rating. Unless otherwise specified in
an item’s description, the general Device Rating can be
found on the Device Ratings table.
When an item has additional functionality when connected
to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless”
entry in the item’s description. This functionality only
applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which
is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise,
like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone. If
there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater
than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance,
the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see
Noise, p. 230).
These benefits only apply when the item’s wireless
mode is on.[/spoiler]So no, I do not think wireless functionality here talks about just wireless bonuses of items that have extra functionality when connected to the matrix. I think it applies to all wireless functionality. This is supported by Wireless Functionality being explained first and Noise killing Wireless Functionality, not Wireless Bonuses. If there was no Wireless Functionality section just before, then maybe you could argue RAW supporting your reading. But with this order of rules, grouped together and phrased like that, wireless functionality and noise clearly involve far, far more than just the wireless bonuses.
The section of the rules you quoted, by the way, means wireless bonuses are wireless functionality. It simply is there to make clear you only lose THAT benefit of the item and not everything else, so you can still use a wired smartgun or a lasersight for Accuracy and you can still use a MedKit. It does not mean wireless functionality is by definition wireless bonuses, especially since they explained wireless functionality as a whole earlier.
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Xenon Hehe, you don't have to discuss anything if you don't want to; I was just saying it doesn't seem like the RAW for satellite link provides "Noise Reduction" (TM), but simply limits "Noise due to distance" to -5. The problem with that phrasing, as I see it, is that while it would allow you to connect to the matrix through it if the closest other wireless device was up to 100km away (5-5 = 0 noise, noise has to exceed device rating to stop it from functioning, so a Rating 3 device with satellite link theoretically should be able to connect to the matrix from anywhere (noise 8-3-5)), it wouldn't help you in several of the other conditions listed under static/spam zones:
Abandoned Underground Area, Heavy Rain or Snow, for example. Severe Storm. Enclosed Place. Most of the "Spam" zone descriptions do not deal with distance, but "Noise". So the question is, does satellite link provide Noise Reduction -5, or is the current wording that it "limits Noise due to distance to -5".
And I'm with Michael on noise affecting more than just wireless bonuses. Anything that mentions using wireless would seem to be affected if noise rating exceeds device rating (no wireless charging shock gloves if Noise Rating = 3, for instance, or wirelessly detonating grenades, etc etc)
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As they seem to confuse things on purpose I would not be surprised if this is the case here as well. Would not be the first place.
If the sentence about loss of wireless functionality due to noise had been at p.420 (that talk about wireless in general) instead of p.421 (that talk about wireless bonuses in particular) and if they replaced phrase such as "[being] wireless[-enabled]" with "wireless functionality" then it would have been clear what they mean. Example below:
Every item having wireless functionality means that nearly every item has a device rating. Unless otherwise specified in an item’s description, the general Device Rating can be found on the Device Ratings table. If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality (see Noise, p. 230).
If they had replaced "[additional] [wireless] functionality" with "wireless bonus" in the whole wireless bonus chapter then they would have been clear as well. Example below:
When an item has wireless bonus when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description. This wireless bonus only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone. If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses its wireless bonus (see Noise, p. 230).
The book using different phrases for the exact same thing (for no apparent reason) is the root cause of pretty much every debate we had so far i think :)
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So we have 2 readings
One assumes bad placement of that section (just like Augmented Maximum) and that after they explain Wireless Functionality, they actually mean Wireless Functionality when talking about Wireless Functionality in the Wireless Bonus section.
The other assumes that after introducing Wireless Functionality and talking about Wireless Bonuses, they were dumb enough to use not the term they just introduced and is the header of the section, but instead a term they had just defined a section earlier but did not intend to use here.
Leaving aside Occam's Razor and design setup arguments, your reading results in severe gamebalance issues, as I explained, which contradict not just reason and balance but also fluff intel. My reading, on the other hand, results in a game where Noise is indeed wieldable as a weapon. My reading is RAW, barring errata, but given the consequences of your RAI reading I find it impossible that they intended the rules as such.
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@Martin
You don't lose wireless functionality from noise due to distance (we said this several times now).
Satellite Link does not provide noise reduction. It "limit" noise due to distance to 5.
"Limit" to -5 due to distance mean that you will not take -8 due to distance if you are using a satellite link
- even if you are hacking a device that is more than 100km away from your cyberdeck..
If you have a satellite link then you get matrix access even if you are in the middle of a desert, at the north pole or adrift in the middle of the pacific ocean. You will get 5 noise (and -5 dice pool modifier on your matrix actions) due to the satellite link count as "Remote place with satellite access only".
And I'm with Michael on noise affecting more than just wireless bonuses. Anything that mentions using wireless would seem to be affected if noise rating exceeds device rating (no wireless charging shock gloves if Noise Rating = 3, for instance, or wirelessly detonating grenades, etc etc)
Noise (p.230) talk about noise as it slow everything down (not shutting them down completely)
"...It may seem as if traffic in the Matrix is instantaneous, but ask anyone who has played an online game with someone a few continents away—there is a noticeable delay compared to playing someone next door..."
You get negative dice pool modifier because your signal take a few parts of a second longer to reach your destination.
Wireless Bonus talk about functionality and what you need to do to get this functionality (access to matrix, wireless ON) and what will stop it (no access to matrix (like if you are in the middle of a desert) or if noise is higher than device rating). You don't get wireless bonus if you connect with cable because it is too slow compared to wireless. You don't get wireless bonus if you have too much noise because it is too slow compared to not having much noise.
So we have 2 readings...
I used to argue for your point Michael. I based my assumption in this thread on Aaron's post as it seem as if his word have a lot of weight on this forum and he got behind the scenes knowledge and access to the upcoming errata. Something I don't have.
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Xenon Thanks, that makes sense. I guess my struggle was with noise vs distance. After you pointed out that satellite link only means you won't be at -8 things make much more sense.
I can't wait for the errata :-)
Sorry for being a pain, guys. Some of the rules have been really hard to get to terms with (addiction rules probably took me and a couple others a few hours to suss out), and I just want to make sure I have as complete of an understanding as possible of the core rules for when SRM begins.
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"Can a device that is slaved to a PAN use the Device Rating of it's master to determine Noise modifiers and whether or not Wireless functionality is temporarily lost?"
Yes of course it can, it connects to that and then the matrix. This is exactly how we play it, anything else is silly and any peon with a rating 6 jammer shuts down everything, including military vehicles, what about planes ?
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Yes of course it can...
This is not SR4.
In SR5 individual devices connect to the matrix on their own. They are not wireless-hard-wired to a "server" in the network and from there access the Matrix. Slaving your device to a master device let the slaved device use master attributes when taking defense tests - that's about it.
If there is enough noise between your wireless firearm and your DNI, your PAN and the Matrix as a whole then you can no longer change fire mode as a free action. I am pretty sure having a rating 6 commlink will not change this...
- You can still change fire mode as a simple action.
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any peon with a rating 6 jammer shuts down everything, including military vehicles, what about planes ?
If the plane is at least 120 meters away, even a Rating 10 Directional Jammer will not be able to jam it. Even the slowest military aircraft can go 80m in 1 CT. So really, that won't be a problem.
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"Can a device that is slaved to a PAN use the Device Rating of it's master to determine Noise modifiers and whether or not Wireless functionality is temporarily lost?"
Yes of course it can, it connects to that and then the matrix. This is exactly how we play it, anything else is silly and any peon with a rating 6 jammer shuts down everything, including military vehicles, what about planes ?
No, of course it can't. Think of it this way as well: the jamming signal is saturating the air all around you. You can't feel it, but your smartlinked gun can. Now, your gun may be slaved to your commlink, and your commlink is a rating 6, let's say. However, that smartlink is still a rating 2. If the noise level is 3 due to jamming, or whatever, you lose the wireless bonus because your smartlink can no longer communicate with the Matrix on its own. "But what about through the commlink?" I hear you ask. Well, the smartlink also can't communicate with your commlink for the very same reason. The noise from the jammer is preventing the smartlinked weapon to get any signal out. Maybe it can receive data, but it can't send out requests for data, because its rating is too low and is blocked by the jamming noise.
Note, I don't think I'm really adding anything to this discussion, other than another way of explaining it. Sometimes it helps to explain one thing a number of ways in order to clarify for different people. Hopefully this is helpful to someone.
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Well, the smartlink also can't communicate with your commlink for the very same reason. The noise from the jammer is preventing the smartlinked weapon to get any signal out.
Not exactly, since you can wire the smartlink to the commlink. However, the device itself isn't set up to work its full functionality through a wire, wireless bonuses only work if the devices themselves can access the Matrix without intermediate.
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Man, I can't wait for the errata on this. It makes absolutely no sense that a wired connection from a smartgun to a commlink wouldn't allow the smartgun access to the Matrix through the commlink so it could utilize it's wireless bonus...
Personally, I think the issue lies in the wording of "Wireless Bonus", when by all rights it should be "Matrix Connectivity Bonus" or some such. However it has access to the Matrix, the bonus should apply; a device inside a faraday cage can't receive wireless signals, but it sure as hell can receive signals sent down and optical wire and, depending on the length of said wire, latency won't be affected at all.
Fortunately, cyberware runs on neural interfaces and so are not excessively affected by this mess, but I know for sure how I would run the game seeing as I don't think the rules as written convey the rules as intended, nor reflect how SigInt works in the setting to my mind. If the RAW actually applied, why wouldn't everyone and their mothers just carry jammers, seeing as how a relatively cheap piece of equipment can so easily negate some pretty expensive tech...
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Man, I can't wait for the errata on this. It makes absolutely no sense that a wired connection from a smartgun to a commlink wouldn't allow the smartgun access to the Matrix through the commlink so it could utilize it's wireless bonus...
It makes perfect sense as a game balance thing.
Moreover, there is no strangeness or ambiguity involved: the thing is called wireless bonus and that means that there is a bonus you get for going wireless, as in without any wires. As Bull has coined in the SRM FAQ (the thing was said about the one-attack-per-phase thing, but the wording applies here quite well): don’t get cute and try to play word games.
I am convinced that nigh everyone who tries to circumvent the rule just doesn't like it. That might not be the case, but it sure looks so. But it is a rule, it is RAW, it has been supported by Aaron (see the FAQ topic (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.555)), so we can assume it is RAW - deal with it. You can always homerule the thing, you know.
As for everyone using jammers, re-read the SR5 fluff. Everyone assumes the Matrix is safe and well-protected. Yes, every shadowrunner should carry a jammer, maybe some corpsecs should, but not every citizen: they have no need for them.
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I don't buy into the game balance argument. In the same FAQ you reference, it was stated that "skinlink is not available, yet". This seemingly implies that skinlink is likely to make a comeback, especially given that "wires are cool"...
I think it's more than a little ironic that the FAQ states "don't get cute", when it then turns around and does the exact same thing (see above, wires are cool, folks!). And the fact that it's called a Wireless Bonus is exactly what I think is wrong with this rule, as I just stated; to me it should be a matrix connectivity bonus, not specifically wireless. Unlike some people, I just don't accept that an optical wire and a wireless signal do not have the same bandwidth, nor do I subscribe to the notion that somehow, because "I/O Protocols", a wireless signal is somehow "faster" (or has less latency, more correctly), than a hardwired system.
And I make no attempt at hiding the fact that I don't like this particular rule, rather quite the opposite.
As for your last argument, re-read the SR5 fluff, particularly the parts about security measures... Plenty of null areas in the zero-zones, and I'd be VERY surprised if the corps didn't make extensive use of wireless jamming technology, seeing as how it would easily hinder some of the pesky runner types who keep breaking into their compounds and stealing their shit. But that's neither here nor there.
Like I said; I can't wait for errata. And I have every intention of houseruling this particular bit of "game balancing" mechanic.
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OK, let's wait for it.
*prepares his "told you so" sign"* ;D
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(wires are cool, folks!)
Its ironic that wires are specifically pointed out as being in fashion again, given that we are punished for using them.
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(wires are cool, folks!)
Its ironic that wires are specifically pointed out as being in fashion again, given that we are punished for using them.
You either don't know the meaning of the word "ironic" or of "punished," but I can't decide which it is.
Wires make you noise and hacking proof - that's not a punishment, that's a benefit.
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(wires are cool, folks!)
Its ironic that wires are specifically pointed out as being in fashion again, given that we are punished for using them.
I actually think that was supposed to be a joke by Bull anyway. Either in this FAQ or some other official publication they note that you can wire your stuff if you want but will look like a friggin' dinosaur, a decidedly uncool term in context.
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Heh, Noble Drake and JackVII, thanks for proving my point.
Bull did the exact same thing that a lot of players are doing with the whole issue of the wording of "attack action" have been doing, namely playing word games. To me, that's pretty cute...
Noble Drake; and just how, excatly, is being noise proof a benefit, when all noise does is cause you to lose wireless bonuses? In essence, running wires between gear = turning off wireless functionality, which means that "Noise Proof" = affected by Noise Rating greater than Device Rating. I fail to see how this is a benefit, somehow. As for being hacking proof; how, exactly, does that work from a game mechanics point of view? I certainly can't find any rules for how wires work.
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Bull did the exact same thing that a lot of players are doing with the whole issue of the wording of "attack action" have been doing, namely playing word games. To me, that's pretty cute...
Well, unlike the rest of us, Bull is acting in a quasi-official capacity as the Missions Guy. In his case, "word games" become "rule clarifications/interpretations that one may not like"
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You either don't know the meaning of the word "ironic" or of "punished," but I can't decide which it is.
Wires make you noise and hacking proof - that's not a punishment, that's a benefit.
I dont consider it a benefit when I have to keep my equipment in a half functional state just to lower the possibility of some nerd making them totally non functional. I consider it doing half his job for him. But I suppose thats just me.
Its supposedly difficult to actually hack equipment in game anyway. If this is the case, then theres even less of a reason to go wired at all. Only reason I can ever see to is in a high noise zone where youd lose half your equipments usefulness anyway.
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Half-functional is an exaggeration. Especially since the wireless bonuses mostly exist only to be hackable mechanisms. Now some (including me) may not like them, but they are meant to be vulnerable bonuses, and the gear still works quite fine without.
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Bull did the exact same thing that a lot of players are doing with the whole issue of the wording of "attack action" have been doing, namely playing word games. To me, that's pretty cute...
Well, unlike the rest of us, Bull is acting in a quasi-official capacity as the Missions Guy. In his case, "word games" become "rule clarifications/interpretations that one may not like"
Except in this case, there was less clarification and more confusion. A cute comment lead to more, not less, questions about how wireless can interact with wires.
And I do agree with Michael on this one; I too am not a fan of these rules, but while wireless does provide bonuses it's not like the limb/gear completely shuts down if hacked/affected by noise. Smartguns still provide +2 accuracy, hydraulic jacks still provide +6 physical limit, and your datajack still lets you shoot around corners. They're not as good as they could be, but they're not terrible either. And this is coming from the guy who's spent over 400k nuyen on a starting character's 'ware...
Am I miffed that an 800 nuyen piece of hardware can negate some very potent bonuses? Yes, absolutely, because it does cheapen the value of those investments to me, just like a 10 nuyen dose of cram is as effective as a 95k nuyen piece of bioware in certain situations.
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Half-functional is an exaggeration. Especially since the wireless bonuses mostly exist only to be hackable mechanisms. Now some (including me) may not like them, but they are meant to be vulnerable bonuses, and the gear still works quite fine without.
I will concede that that you can look at the wireless bonus as just that: bonus functionality. I dont understand that thought processes however. In SR5, wireless functionality is ubiquitous. Designers and manifacturers create products with the assumption that the wireless will always be on. Wireless on is every items natural state.
No matter how you slice it, a gimped item is a gimped item. Since we as players get gear for the bonuses they provide, I would disagree that they work quite fine when not functioning at full capacity. Would someone with 1 rank in pistols say their predator is working just fine if they have to turn its wireless off? No, theyd wonder why didnt buy a Colt 2055. They still wouldnt be able to hit shit, but its 100¥ cheaper :P
If the goal was to get people to go wireless, mission accomplished. Theres no real benefit to wires, thanks to the ease of defending your wireless. Slaved to a rtg 6 comlink, its going to take 2 or 3 rounds to hack your equipment, and even if they get close, you can just turn it off/on anyway.
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Honestly, myself I think the wireless bonuses of smartguns and such should be removed from the game, and I likely will houserule it like that.
By the way, for Adepts smartguns are less valuable wireless, while on the other hand a Colt 2066 might be just as accurate with a lasersight, but also has weaker damage so is clearly inferior. An Ares Predator still has equal accuracy and 1 more damage even without the wireless bonus.
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Honestly, myself I think the wireless bonuses of smartguns and such should be removed from the game, and I likely will houserule it like that.
By the way, for Adepts smartguns are less valuable wireless, while on the other hand a Colt 2066 might be just as accurate with a lasersight, but also has weaker damage so is clearly inferior. An Ares Predator still has equal accuracy and 1 more damage even without the wireless bonus
Yeah, I keep forgetting they lowered the relative damage of the 2055 for some reason. I guess they were under the impression that a higher accuracy makes up for it. Wish I could see the math on that. Really, the extra accuracy is only nice if youre highly skilled. In which case a colt with a smartgun has the *possibility* of doing more adjusted damage than a predator. But only maybe one or two extra points at most.
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Note that Aaron's reply in the FAQ thread basically was that noise (not from distance) only cause wireless devices to not get their wireless bonus and that the device will still be connected wireless to it's PAN and the Matrix as a whole (so even in heavy rain your imaging device will still get the live camera feed from your on-board mini-camera on your smartgun which let you shoot around corners - you just need to take a simple action to eject the clip instead of a free action and you no longer get your +1 or +2 dice pool modifier).
(of course with the disclaimer that he might be wrong and noise actually remove devices ability to transmit at all. There is also the possibility that noise generated from jammers might be "different" as jammer's fluff describe that it is used to block wireless and radio signals).
Yeah, I keep forgetting they lowered the relative damage of the 2055 for some reason...
If you are skilled enough then Light Pistols are very competitive with Heavy Pistols. For example, Colt America L36 deal as much damage as Colt Government 2066 but come with +1 accuracy (which have the potential to deal one extra DV). With an external smartgun Colt America deal 1 DV less than Ares Predator V but have +2 accuracy (which have the potential to deal two extra DV).
But yeah... you need a dice pool of some 20+ dice before it start to matter more than occasionally (and even then; spending 4 dice calling shots to vitals is on average far better than going for net hits to reach your accuracy limit anyway)
For people that don't like to use wireless smartgun (and have a dice pool of maybe 15 dice or less) I'd say Ruger Supwer Warhawk is very hard to beat. Higher DV, more AP, no progressive recoil no matter how you decide to read recoil rules.
... and your datajack still lets you shoot around corners...
It does? :o