[Marcus]

I haven't been able to get my group to play Shadowrun in a good while, there are so many serious issues. I really hope the community gets a chance to fill out surveys, polls, questionnaires, partake in CGL run threads that actually get looked at, etc. I really hope they don't just all of a sudden drop 6E without giving us a chance to help shape it. Here are some things I seriously hate:

1. Priority System Char Gen: This is the reason people optimize so heavily, it really sucks to lose 50+ karma during character creation, it's unfathomably poorly designed and it needs to go.
2. The Matrix: Way too slow and complicated, very few groups enjoy it as is.
3. Poorly Written Rules: In Anarchy you can one-shot a car with a pistol. The conjuring rules don't exist, there is no target number and no consequence of failure. Drones rules are seriously lacking. Then 5E has too many issues to list, mostly too complicated to remember/be fun.
4. Shadow Talk: Please keep it out of rules books, you don't see this kind of thing in every D&D book, it's filler and I don't want it, just put a fluff section at the beginning or end of the book if needed.
5. Skill cap being 12(13). Simply way too high and not fun rolling absurd amounts of dice. When people buy tiny dice just to play that is a sign there is a problem.
6. Most of the  Negative Qualities are horrible and unusable/not fun at all.

I could go on for quite some time but that's all I'll mention for now. Feel free to disagree but I know that there are many people with similar opinions so I don't think it's fair to say that everything is fine.

Just out of curiosity how does your group like Heroes System? Or Fate System?

[Shadowjack]

Just out of curiosity how does your group like Heroes System? Or Fate System?

After having a blast playing Anarchy but later watching it all fall apart as we delved into the more complex aspects of the rules (many which are absent or broken), I did a lot of searching for replacement games and stumbled upon Fate. I read the book and was extremely impressed with the layout and the majority of the rules. What I wasn't as excited about was how special abilities were created, such as how I would replicate cyberware in a Shadowrun conversion. I found it slow and awkward, not ideal for improvisation. However, we went through character creation and really liked it, except for the cyberware part. Everything was looking good and we were ready to play when we would be in the mood, but we never got that far. Sadly, we did not play a single session and the book has not been touched since. As for the Hero System, I am not familiar with it but I think I gave it a quick glance at some point.

I have done a lot of searching for rules-lite games and considered other more complex games as well but I never find something that really draws me in. We are currently playing D&D 5E, we had a lot of good times and bad times with the system but it's going okay at the moment. We sometimes talk about playing Shadowrun 4E again but the priority system is quite bad, just like in 5E, so we opted for karma buy and stopped after character creation took far too many hours. Long story short, we can't win these days I am hoping for Anarchy 2.0 (probably many years away) or 6E (seems a bit closer). I'm just so worried that these products will be botched and I think it's easily avoidable if CGL works with the community instead of saying "Here you go, hopefully, it's good." After playing 5E and Anarchy I really have to wonder how thoroughly the games are playtested, it seems like much less so than needed. 5E has painfully slow advancement, bordering on not fun at all it's so extreme, quite punishing for short campaigns. Most of the magic and matrix rules are simply not fun, my longtime Shadowrun fan friend has literally never used a spirit as GM or PC, for example. Sorry, I'm getting far away from your question, I just wish that my Shadowrun experience would go much better.

[Marcus]

I love 5th D&D, I think it's a great system. I still prefer 4th D&D, but 5th is stupid simple, and that has lots of advantages.

I get some folks don't enjoy priority but  5e SR currently has four gen options and a large number of variants under those methods. More in fact then any other edition of SR. Priority, Sum2ten, Point Buy, and Life Modules. Under those we have Prime running, Gang level, then the exotic options (AI, Spirits, Draco forms, surge, HMHVV, alt metas etc.) It also discusses how to change methods help them fit your game concept, don't like straight priority? Try AABCC, or Sum2forteen or sum2eight if you prefer less powerful, for greatest flexibility point buy, don't like 5e point buy? Just increase the karma until you get the characters you want your group to play. Want to dumb it down? then Life modules, are fast, stack'em up and then flush out the concept.

There is a lot of 5e at this point, I'm not sure that addresses your concern, but this isn't the game outlined in SR5 Core by a long, long shot.

[Mirikon]

I love 5th D&D, I think it's a great system. I still prefer 4th D&D, but 5th is stupid simple, and that has lots of advantages.

I get some folks don't enjoy priority but  5e SR currently has four gen options and a large number of variants under those methods. More in fact then any other edition of SR. Priority, Sum2ten, Point Buy, and Life Modules. Under those we have Prime running, Gang level, then the exotic options (AI, Spirits, Draco forms, surge, HMHVV, alt metas etc.) It also discusses how to change methods help them fit your game concept, don't like straight priority? Try AABCC, or Sum2forteen or sum2eight if you prefer less powerful, for greatest flexibility point buy, don't like 5e point buy? Just increase the karma until you get the characters you want your group to play. Want to dumb it down? then Life modules, are fast, stack'em up and then flush out the concept.

There is a lot of 5e at this point, I'm not sure that addresses your concern, but this isn't the game outlined in SR5 Core by a long, long shot.

4th ed D&D should die in a fire, along with the people who designed it. Comparing 5E D&D to 3.X or 2nd is like comparing a Model T to a modern vehicle. Yes, the modern vehicle is more complex, but it is able to do shit the Model T can't, and there's room for customization.

As for my opinions on chargen in SR? Scrap all the 5E options, go back to 4E's point buy, and get rid of the scaling karma costs for advancement that makes it so a character coming out of chargen is as good as they are ever going to be in a practical setting. Priority system and scaling karma costs are sacred cows that need to be sent to the slaughterhouse and turned into steaks already.

[Beta]

@ShadowJack My issue with all the rules-lite approaches to Shadowrun is losing some of the delightful crunch of cyberwear, where you might choose have a used cyber-limb or it matters that you spent the extra cash on bioware instead of similar cyberware, etc.  (this feeling applies to Anarchy as much as other fan approaches). (and to a lesser degree magic traditions)

However if I could just get past that part, I'd entirely run the game with the HeroQuest system (the rpg rule set by that name, not the older board game by that name).  They were published initially for a fantasy setting as Hero Wars, then revised and printed also as a stand-alone rule set -- you can get the base rules book for ten bucks on drivethrurpg.  The rules scale with power seamlessly, you can literally start with no more than character concepts if you feel like it, and it has some very nice mechanisms to focus play time on the most dramatic part of events.

[Shadowjack]

Nursing a perpetual arm injury so I need to keep it short

@Marcus: I don't like any of the 5E char gen options, all characters should be worth the same amount of karma in char gen by default. As for 5E, I'm having a good time

@Mirikon: I loathe scaling costs, you are exactly right. I wish I could just pay for what I want in a simple manner, or, allocate points in the priority system without getting screwed over for creating a character without optimizing heavily due to the mathematical nature of costs.

@Beta: I know what you mean although I have come to not mind it as much, instead of having 10 pieces of ware I might only have 3, but those pieces really define my character build so they feel very fun in that way. I ordered Chicago Chaos earlier, despite some of the rules issues with Anarchy I'm going to take another crack at it as it's been the best for me in terms of short session prep and actually getting lots of sessions in. It also feels more modern and fresh, easier, etc.

[Ajax]

I’d like to ditch the “fistfuls of dice” design paradigm entirely. I know, I know, chucking an entire brick of Chessex d6’s for every skill check and attack roll has been a staple of Shadowrun since 1989 but... Why?

There’s so many other possible dice systems out there, which are faster in play and more intuitive to learn/easier to teach.

[Marcus]

4th ed D&D should die in a fire, along with the people who designed it. Comparing 5E D&D to 3.X or 2nd is like comparing a Model T to a modern vehicle. Yes, the modern vehicle is more complex, but it is able to do shit the Model T can't, and there's room for customization.

It is worth noting 5e was largely designed as a throw back to 2nd. Comparing it to 3 is actually very funny, as 5e is a great deal less sophisticated rules wise. Just take a look at the non-euclidean movement rules in 5e. Which amusingly is something 5e inherited from 4e.

[Shadowjack]

I’d like to ditch the “fistfuls of dice” design paradigm entirely. I know, I know, chucking an entire brick of Chessex d6’s for every skill check and attack roll has been a staple of Shadowrun since 1989 but... Why?

There’s so many other possible dice systems out there, which are faster in play and more intuitive to learn/easier to teach.

I'm with you on that. Taking the time to count out 10-20 dice or even 30 dice for rolls really slows down gameplay, I prefer to place a higher value on roleplaying by using quicker dice rolling. I also think that using dice rolling apps is a step backwards but that's just me.

[DeathStrobe]

I think Priority is better for chargen, especially for newbies. I honestly feel that SR4 had a lot of trap options because it was hard to understand which way to go with a character until you got more familiarity with the system.

I honestly feel is harder to make a awful character in SR5 because of priority.

However, one thing I'd like is if the karma costs were more balanced. This way sum to 10 doesn't end up so broken.

[Mirikon]

I’d like to ditch the “fistfuls of dice” design paradigm entirely. I know, I know, chucking an entire brick of Chessex d6’s for every skill check and attack roll has been a staple of Shadowrun since 1989 but... Why?

There’s so many other possible dice systems out there, which are faster in play and more intuitive to learn/easier to teach.

I'm with you on that. Taking the time to count out 10-20 dice or even 30 dice for rolls really slows down gameplay, I prefer to place a higher value on roleplaying by using quicker dice rolling. I also think that using dice rolling apps is a step backwards but that's just me.

Do what I do, and line up the dice. 6 rows of 6 d6s is 36 d6. Doesn't take long to pull 20 d6 out of that, because three rows is 18, and grab 2 more. done and done.

[Shadowjack]

Do what I do, and line up the dice. 6 rows of 6 d6s is 36 d6. Doesn't take long to pull 20 d6 out of that, because three rows is 18, and grab 2 more. done and done.

That works but it involves constantly lining up dice and I find it to be a pain the ass, to be honest I also don't like the feeling of filling my hand with dice and rolling them, it also seems very antiquated.

[Michael Chandra]

I’d like to ditch the “fistfuls of dice” design paradigm entirely. I know, I know, chucking an entire brick of Chessex d6’s for every skill check and attack roll has been a staple of Shadowrun since 1989 but... Why?

There’s so many other possible dice systems out there, which are faster in play and more intuitive to learn/easier to teach.

Eh, the dicepools have already significantly reduced in 5e. As for other dice systems, I actually like the math around Shadowrun. I personally loathe 1d20 games because they're just too random, whereas 2d6 (and in lesser amount, 2d10) poses too big of an impact on even a single +1. In WITCH: The Fated, I started near-optimal at +14 on Artefact creation, and under houserules only have 39% chance to create an Epic Artefact in 1 month (which already shows how batshit good my character is). An extra +2 (maximum possible when minmaxing) would boost that to 69%, that's how big a 'mere' +2 can be in such a system. It's more balanced in Shadowrun.

That said, I do like the decreasing in 5e, and I use tricks where whenever I host Open Events, dice are all gathered in sets of 9 for easy counting (sets of 6 would also work). Plus I got a set of Shadowrun dice (7x6) and ordered some from that Kickstarter where the colors are different for hits.

I think Priority is better for chargen, especially for newbies. I honestly feel that SR4 had a lot of trap options because it was hard to understand which way to go with a character until you got more familiarity with the system.

I honestly feel is harder to make a awful character in SR5 because of priority.

However, one thing I'd like is if the karma costs were more balanced. This way sum to 10 doesn't end up so broken.

Agreed, karma could use some balancing, plenty of ways that that might be done, but you just know there will always be people complaining. =P Whatever game-balance happens (examples: Prio chargen, Limits, boost to ranged defense, boost to skill cap, 1 attack per IP...), people will complain about it and claim the new edition sucks and only 3e or even 1e ('because permanent damage to your Magic on a big damage roll!') was decent enough for their tastes.

But yeah, I prefer Priority over BP (broken just as poorly and way too complicated) and karmagen (too many fucking options...) when it comes to new characters. I tried Lifestyle, but it's near-impossible to neatly spec out a focused character because again, so many options, too much math. Took me ages to get some sample characters done that way.

[JudgeMonroe]

I like Life Modules in principle, but it is literally a bolt-on to Point Buy and doesn't give you a completed character at the end. If it was tuned to actually produce complete characters and you could use it with random tables, then at least it could be useful as an NPC or contact generator.

[Michael Chandra]

True, though if you stack enough of them you can get close enough to karma spent. =P Then just throw in some manual rounding and bam. NPCs would be easier, especially with a tool such as HeroLab.

Aaaaaand now I want to go roll half a dozen random NPCs with HeroLab. I hate you. -_-