NEWS

New DM Help Please

  • 8 Replies
  • 2237 Views

FLP123

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 2
« on: <06-09-18/1411:02> »
Hey guys,

        So I am running a Shadowrun 5e game and I am (and my players) quite new to the Shadowrun rules. I have run D&D 5e and 3.5 a lot before, however I cannot seem to figure out DMing in Shadowrun on my own. I can't seem to include everyone in certain parts of my runs (I have done 2 runs so far). For example, during the planning stages before the run, our technomancer is hacking stuff (cameras, security, etc.), our rigger is sending drones up to scout out the territory, and our face is asking around for information and such (contacts or what have you). However, the street samurais, the adept, and the mage (shaman mostly) just kind of have to sit around and wait for the other players to be done in order to be useful. One thing that we have collectively as a group decided to not implement (for the time being because we are all so new to the game) is astral space just to keep things simpler for us. We plan to implement it later, but not until we have a firm grasp of the rest of the game. My question is this: what can I have those characters be doing so that they don't just sit there doing nothing but listening to the rest of the party doing things? I cannot seem to figure out exactly what to have them do. Thank you. 

Also, any other advise for a new DM is GREATLY appreciated :)

Bamce

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
« Reply #1 on: <06-09-18/1444:14> »
For the most part its on those character to come up with stuff to do. But nothing stops them from

Calling up their own contacts
Staking the place out
Following people
Giving assistance to other folks

Here is a link to a bunch of podcasts and youtube channels and stuff full of gm advice. http://www.relativedimension.com/fellow-podcasts/

And the shadow casters discord link
https://discord.gg/ZM6jkWQ

And some basic chargen advice
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2jTV4sGyFDBWUlUUlNNaHYxNG8

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #2 on: <06-09-18/1457:18> »
So legwork phase, not everyone is going to be good at it. Ideally when you build your character you plan ahead and try to have something to contribute, but it doesn't always work. Your shaman can easily use spirits to help do lots of things. But your Sams and adept need to ether have sort built in something to do, or really just accept that they may be sitting around in that phase. They can do things like drive around and make perception checks, make some small unit tactics rolls, get some knowledge of various security procedures. Those all fall into things those types of character are often good at. But those things won't always be applicable.

To be very honest I wouldn't manufacture things for them to do. If the game ever reach a really bad point of boredom, there is always the old ninja attack option. But at the same time if they become proactive, I would give them a good amount of leeway and see what they manage to do. Things like hitting up the local club for information can lead interesting scene, and fun role play opportunities.

Things to look at could be data search often helpful.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #3 on: <06-09-18/1523:48> »
Ok,

First, it is important to know that generally speaking, there are 4 parts to every run, and that not all players are going to be effective at every stage, as that would depend on how they built their characters.

The first part of the run AFTER they take the job, is legwork. They have to (or at least Should!) verify everything the Johnson told them if they don't want surprises. Legwork involves making a bunch of social tests to see if any contacts have any dirt about the subject of the run. Because it is a social test (mostly), this is the time that the Face and others who have invested in contacts and social skills to shine, while those that skipped Social skills and contacts get to sit with their thumbs up their ass because of their own choices. (yes, it sucks, but this is what happens when one ignores social skills and contacts)

The second part after they have done their legwork is the Planning and Gathering step. This is where they make their master plan to get the objective done, and acquire any special gear they need. Again, this is going to be a mix of Social Skills and knowledge skills to get the gear and come up with a plan... Which means again, people who skipped out of Social skills, contacts, and knowledge skills will have less to do.

The Third part is the run itself. Depending on the plan, the objective, and how pear shaped things go, everyone should have had something to do at all stages of this. Hacking doors, providing overwatch, sneaking, introducing lead poisioning to security... this step no one should bored. But because the combination of what they actually do to achieve their goal is limitless, there could be times when a character has nothing to do.... Again this boils down to how the character was built.
 
Finally there is the Hand Off.  this is where the Runners had over the objective and get paid. Some Johnsons however don't like to pay, so they try to screw over the runners... so things can be interesting or boring.... Or the interesting things can happen after the hand over as the players plan their revenge :P


I notice your experience is all D'n'D based, which is both good and bad. ITs good because at least you understand how the basics of the tabletop RPG work, and have an understanding of the basics of how teamwork in an RPG can come in. It's bad because of the differences between the two systems, and how the way the characters interact with world and what they can do.
In DnD/pathfinder, they have classes. Each class comes with with certain advantages and disadvantages. You know that when you build a Fighter in DnD, you get d10 hp every level, you get the highest BAB, and you can wear and use any armor. You know when you build a mage, you can't use armors, you get d6 hp, you get the worst BAB, and you get spell.  In shadowrun, there are no classes per say, Shadowrun uses Archtypes.

Aren't Archtypes and Classes the same thing? No. Archtypes are job descriptions only. They convey nothing to the character beyond a title. (They DO infer a lot however.) Take the Archtype of "Street Sam" (the "Fighter" of DnD). The Archtype inplies that they are a fighting type of archtype, and that is about it. A street Sam can be a cybered up Troll packing heavy armor and heavy weapons. Or they can be an elf who wears very little armor and only uses pistols... There is no set bonuses or disadvantages to being a "Street Sam" that is enjoyed across all Street Sams. When a character in SR get tired of being a Street Sam and choose to "multi-class" into Hacking, they don't just get a host of new abilities and skills: They have to actually buy up those skills and buy their equipment! But, they could call themselves a "Hacker" without investing anything into skills and eqipment if they so choose. (And probably get shot by their own team that was relying on them!)

Which puts the onus back on to the player to make sure this character can do something at every stage of the game. When A player builds a character, they should be asking themselves "What Am I going to do at every phase of gameplay?" and then go from there.

So For example; I want to make a Street Sam for a game. So now I have to think about the phases of the game and what I will be doing and prioritize.
As the Street Sam, Combat will be my focus, so I need to make sure that I can take and deal damage. (lots of options, not going to get into it here)
During the legwork phase of play, to keep with my Combat focus, I am going to get knowledge skills in the areas of Corp Security, Law Enforcement, and Police tactics. (Remember, knowledge skills can be literally anything that is not an active skill! You could have knowledge skills in DC Comicbooks if you so choose!)
However, since legwork also involves talking to actual people, I am going to make sure I have some social skills as well. (They don't need to be huge, but some dice is always better then no dice)
I should also invest in some stealth skills as well. Being good at combat is one thing, but the police have more cops then I can carry Ammo. And when the Shit REALLY hits the fan, The police have access to hardened armor and weapons! (it's called the "Military" and "An on going terrorist Threat" - the Runners!).


Now this is a lot more to think about for the average DnD player, whose usual only major decisions are: Class, Primary Weapon, Primary Armor, Name.

Shadowrun is a lot more fluid style of a game, and it usually takes players (And GMs!) a while to adapt. Take you time, learn the rules at your place and enjoy yourselves!


And as always, If you have questions, come stop by the forums, some of us try our best to help out if we can. But also keep in mind we are a global community that doesn't always agree with each other, so expect some wildly different answers to your questions. Doesn't mean the answers they give are wrong, they just come from a different perspective.
« Last Edit: <06-09-18/1528:14> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Sphinx

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
« Reply #4 on: <06-09-18/1553:31> »
Things to keep your players busy:
  • Stakeout. Sometimes someone just needs to sit still and watch a place. Bonus if you have cybereyes, which can add dice to a Perception test and allow you to stream video to the rest of the team.
  • Scouting. Learn the layout of the surrounding area. Quickest ways in and out, traffic patterns, popular hangouts for the locals, handy spots for a quick bite or a soykaf, places like malls and markets for losing tails, dead ends to avoid, and the locations of the nearest clinic, hardware store, police station, etc.
  • Buddy system. Characters that are optimized for legwork (i.e., faces) may not be the best combatants, and vice versa. Apart from the general usefulness of teamwork tests, it's nice to have backup when you run into unexpected trouble. And when deckers and mages go wandering the Matrix or astral plane, it's good to have a babysitter watching over their shells.
  • Transportation. There are lots of options for getting around a sprawl (train, bus, taxi, autocab, rickshaw, feet), but it's better to have your own wheels, and best to have a wheelman waiting with the engine running.
  • Supporting cast. If your players are up to the challenge, assign them NPC roles while their characters are busy elsewhere. Hand the idle player a piece of paper with a few bullet points about the NPC's personality and the information they have, and let the two players act it out. Whenever the mage summons a spirit or the rigger launches a drone, let another player run it, carrying out the instructions they're given.

General advice:
  • The "Gamemaster Advice" chapter in the core rulebook is actually pretty good. Start there.
  • Once you know ahead of time what your hacker, rigger, and face are likely to do during the legwork phase, you can have the dice rolls planned and information available to speed things up.
  • Email background information about the job to the group a few days ahead of time. Maybe you can get some of the legwork out of the way simply by exchanging email, or at least get to the point where everyone's ready to roll dice when they arrive at the table.

Streetsam_Crunch

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • Grumpy Old Ork
« Reply #5 on: <06-09-18/1557:21> »
Yup, good stuff here! I also agree if your players don't give their characters useful skills or contacts, then it's also partially on them to figure out how they can help.

Also, never underestimate the usefulness/need of physical recon. There's likely to be a number of things that your decker isn't going to know about because it's not in the matrix, or they don't think to look- security details/patterns hardwired security systems and defensive measures that aren't part of the network... etc. It's also very likely that Mr. Johnson either doesn't know everything, or isn't telling everything...

Taking a drive around the run site and scoping out everything (even just using basic perception tests) can be useful (and you can take advantage of the fact if they don't... what do you mean security teams have hellhounds with them, and all the doors have conventional locks that need regular keys!?!). Encourage them to be creative when it comes to helping with the run. Maybe watch a few caper movies (like Ocean's 11 or such). While not exactly the same, they can give you ideas on what your players could be thinking about.

Also, just like random dungeons in D&D, not every run has to make a ton of sense outside of the objective (and even that can be fuzzy- there's a Neo-Tokyo mission coming up at GenCon that has your employer hire the team to retrieve something for them... but they won't tell you what it is, or where it's at... think of the legwork THAT one is going to need! :o ). Runs can just be jobs that are of interest to the one hiring the team, and may only be a small part of *that* story that the characters may never hear about again, or if you want may be a recurring theme if that particular Mr. Johnson keeps them involved along the way. Such things can make excellent side-stories.

In my opinion, Shadowrun can be a *very* player driven game. Each player has to decide why their character is running the shadows, and what they want out of it. Of course there's the basic "nuyen and better gear/ware" but what is their 'end goal'? Sure, you can make the story about a series of runs with a specific Mr. Johnson or Fixer (for a video game reference of this kind of story, the Harebrained Shadowrun: Dragonfall is a very good reference, filled with side stories about the runners and a concurrent main plot that weaves it all together) OR the runs can be completely random from many different Johnsons (allowing you to experiment with different concepts) while the *real* story takes place with the players between runs... or it can be a mix of both.

It's also possible that something they discover when on a run can pique your group's interests, and can move your campaign into a completely different direction. That can be really fun to roll with too.  :)

Also- Welcome to 'running' the shadows, chummer! I agree with Reaver that your D&D experience can be both good and bad when it comes to Shadowrun. Depends on how you ran your D&D sessions, really. If you're more comfortable just running modules and such, picking up some convention mission sourcebooks (like Boundless Mercy or Serrated Edge, for example, though there are many others) may be a good way to get your feet wet and learn a little bit about how things operate in the 6th world. However, Shadowrun in my opinion really shines when you and the players get comfortable enough to go off the beaten path. ;)

Hope this helps!

Crunch~

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9920
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #6 on: <06-09-18/1605:52> »
Remember that Data Searches take time, contacts may have to get back to you later or require a personal meet, a hacker may have to get close to hack while requiring a lookout. Plenty of time and activities that allow for physical recon efforts.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

FLP123

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 2
« Reply #7 on: <06-09-18/2055:20> »
Hey thank you guys! This has helped a lot. I will definitely post on the forums more if I need more help :)

Spooky

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 462
  • If you run, you'll only die tired.
« Reply #8 on: <06-11-18/1534:05> »
As a player and DM of D&D and Shadowrun for many years, I can't stress enough the differences between the systems. Not just classes vs archetypes, but the whole "aim" of each system. What do I mean? D&D is "aimed" at player/DM interaction, and Shadowrun is "aimed" at player/player interaction. Can either interaction happen in any game regardless of system? Yes. However, the main type of interaction is specific to each system, in my experience. So, since many D&D players, especially after years playing together, are so used to the "ask the DM" mode of play, they often find it hard to adjust to Shadowrun's "ask each other" mode. Personally, I would suggest that you all take a step back, and run a combat encounter, a social encounter, and a matrix encounter, and maybe a magic encounter to help all of you get used to the rules. Spend a session doing one encounter type to see how it works, and allow players to tweak their characters afterwards. While Shadowrun is a game of specialists not generalists, it is entirely possible to use Teamwork tests to succeed handily, and only one character needs to specialize in that area. My tables across the years have done Teamwork tests to accomplish some breathtaking feats, from sinking a small Aztech flotilla to selling off a t-bird at more than book price when they started at 25% of that. and to participate in a Teamwork test, all a given character needs is one point in the skill being used. And please ask questions, we like answering.
Spooky, what do you do this pass? Shoot him with my thunderstruck gauss rifle. (Rolls)  8 hits. Does that blow his head off?