NEWS

Magic fingers and foci

  • 51 Replies
  • 7062 Views

catrone3

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Newb
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
« Reply #30 on: <03-22-18/1324:57> »
Marcus, at this point I am not even arguing that isn't how it was intended. I am pointing out that there are worse changes than that small word change for foci in the books that it seems they didn't know about or notice.

Because if you want to say that something contravenes 5 editions of how something works then explain to me why background counts suddenly made all nazi death camps, the great cairn, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, native american re-education camp at Abilene, the aura borealis, the five Chinese sacred mountains (one lung lives in), and Blackstone prison all deadly to any awakened person (including dragons) if they stayed there too long. That sounds like a much bigger change in how magic works than whether or not a spells signature counts as something that can keep a foci active.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #31 on: <03-22-18/1412:55> »
That is a great Story SSDR.

Cat3, there are consequences from accepting your wording change, under your logic, someone could use a weapon focus throwing knife and still have it active when it hit the target. That won't be allowed, thus the change isn't going to happen.

As to the background count, the rating change has already been discussed, Background count has been around for long time, and the changes made to it were to account for other changes made in the system. If you want to head down to the errata forums and you find the thread where I argued against the those changes for many pages.

Understand that background count isn't the only change to the magic system we have seen over five editions, I could point out several more. But it's not important you refuse to discuss other option man, not even a mention of them, you ignored them for two posts now. Come on dude, you asked for opinions you got them. It's time to consider other ways and means.

*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

catrone3

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Newb
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
« Reply #32 on: <03-22-18/1423:46> »
I will head over there and look at that, but that does raise a question about lung. How is lung still alive if his hord is background count 15? or is just assumed he and all his hord have more a really good willpower?

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #33 on: <03-22-18/1427:43> »
Background count has a thing called Alignment. If your background count is aligned in your favor it only makes you stronger.
Not sure who Lung is, but that would be my guess right off.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #34 on: <03-22-18/1434:50> »
SR also has a long tradition of powerful NPCs being not subject to the same sets of rules as mortal PCs.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

catrone3

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Newb
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
« Reply #35 on: <03-22-18/1447:20> »
Marcus, unless it is in the errata section (still haven't gotten to yet) even though you are aligned to it you would still take damage.

SSDR, you are right with that one. powerful NPC do tend to break rules, which is weird.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #36 on: <03-22-18/1456:34> »
Marcus, unless it is in the errata section (still haven't gotten to yet) even though you are aligned to it you would still take damage.

SSDR, you are right with that one. powerful NPC do tend to break rules, which is weird.

Powerful NPCs like Harlequin and the Bottled Demon in 1st ed sources were actually NOT given stats for the explicit purpose of keeping their power infinitely above that of any possible PC.  I think later editions have come down a bit from that extreme.. but yeah as I said powerful NPCs don't always have to play by the same rules that PCs do.  Stands to reason that Lung isn't harmed by living in his own lair, extreme BG count or no.  The in-universe why is left for GMs to explain.  *IF* they feel they even have to.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

catrone3

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Newb
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
« Reply #37 on: <03-22-18/1457:34> »
yea, sadly great dragons, and harlequin have both been stated. This means players will now try to kill them at some point and we know it

catrone3

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Newb
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
« Reply #38 on: <03-22-18/1507:34> »
@Marcus Can you send me the link to that topic post you were mentioning in regards to the background count you argued against

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #39 on: <03-22-18/1609:02> »
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=27021.0

That thread also links to another thread where the discussion began.

We have some of big NPC in 4th.

As far as I know We don't have them in 5th.

But if you think you are gonna take a named great dragon, don't kid yourself, you wont get into the same room as a named great dragon, well unless it invited you over as dinner. Normal Dragons are bad enough, and those are probably kill-able, with a experanced team and a lot of weapons. Maybe.
« Last Edit: <03-22-18/1620:01> by Marcus »
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

catrone3

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Newb
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
« Reply #40 on: <03-22-18/1706:10> »
To kill a normal one, just need some powerful distractions and a good rifleman with a DMR and APDS rounds. Did it once myself and almost watched a second person pull it off before the pilot got us all the hell out of dodge. As for greats, there is evidence to suggest they aren't as strange and evil as one might think. Ghostwalker cared the most about Zebulon and almost thought about killing all of Denver for her, but knowing that about him is evident in his actions leading up to 2079.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #41 on: <03-23-18/0416:23> »
You are aware that standard dragons are high level initiates right? You think a rifle with adps is gonna take out something that has the sorcery skill group at 14, magic 10+ and a body 18?
Start with with a couple of the biggest Cannons you can beg borrow or steal, your most broken milspec combat drones, pack along half dozen Force 12 spirits, bring 3 or 4 brawlers who can actually go toe toe with it in melee for a round or two, then your couple best counter-spelling mages and you probably got chance, if you can get it on relatively neutral ground. But trust me, if your solution depends on ADPS your kidding yourself.

*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

catrone3

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Newb
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
« Reply #42 on: <03-23-18/1005:40> »
What does being a high level initiate have to do with it marcus, they have a set amount of hardened armor. You did read where I said you have to have a "powerful enough distraction" right? Let me do the math as to how this worked for you so that maybe, just maybe you will understand how a rifle did all the damage and took out the dragon.

First off, the rifle character will not be next to the rest of the team, that is the purpose of the distraction. They will instead be pushing their range and have all range modifiers negated through the proper combination of gear. They will be using either the barret or the terracotta, no aim action taken because you will be doing the called shot bulls eye burst with a complex SA burst. This will net an ap of either -16 (terracotta) or -22 (barret), the rifle character is skilled with their rifle and is rolling 24 dice versus a classic western dragon who's dodge is 16 (for at least the first shot, depends on how the GM is thinking and how good the distraction is) so you have a 50 50 shot of getting 3 net success, possibly more. Now if it is the barret, the dragon has just lost most of its hardened armor if it is terracotta it does still have some left so this will be slower. When it comes time to soak the dragon will on average soak 13 of the 18p you managed to do with the terracotta but only 9 of the 17p you managed with the barret. Their condition monitor is only 17 for physical, so you either just took 30% of its health or 50% of its health.

So it can be done with a rifle quite quickly if you have a team that can keep its attention for 3 combat passes, not sure why you think you need all of the stuff you mentioned.

Rosa

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 395
« Reply #43 on: <03-23-18/1020:23> »
Well as Marcus said dragons are high level initiates, and the fact that you seem to not understand what he meant by that is a little troubling. Think high force armor spell, combat Sense, deflection, invisibility, illusions, spirits. .......etc. and your dragon killing scenario just turned into a frantic scramble to stay alive. Also dragons are intelligent and do not just sit still and wait to be shot, killing a dragon in SR should be monumental for a group of runners not just a trivial number crunching exercise.

Metamagic : Anchoring - detection spell trigger + very high force armor spell.  Now your sniper shot does no damage.
« Last Edit: <03-23-18/1037:15> by Rosa »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #44 on: <03-23-18/1039:06> »
Well as Marcus said dragons are high level initiates, and the fact that you seem to not understand what he meant by that is a little troubling. Think high force armor spell, combat Sense, deflection, invisibility, illusions, spirits. .......etc. and your dragon killing scenario just turned into a frantic scramble to stay alive. Also dragons are intelligent and do not just sit still and wait to be shot, killing a dragon in SR should be monumental for a group of runners not just a trivial number crunching exercise.

Metamagic : Anchoring - detection spell trigger + very high force armor spell.  Now your sniper shot does no damage.

And then there's the aforementioned "Major NPCs aren't following the same rules as PCs" factor.  Good luck messing with Lung, for example, in his extreme BGC of a lair :)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.