[tenchi2a]

Meh... At the time, I was surprised to see it doing much better than I had hoped. As for ratings/reviews, I trust them as much as any other rating/review system. Do I still think it's a good game? Yes, I do. And I'd think that even if the sales had tanked. It's a rules setting I LIKE and that's all that matters. If I wanted to play follow the leader, I'd be playing a lot more D&D and Call of Cthulhu instead.

And this is fine.
I don't think anyone was saying you have to hate it if they do.
I know my issues was not you can't like it, my issues was the group of players on this forum that had a tendency to try to convince me I had to like it or CGL would lose the license and some other company would get it and ruin it. (Example: FASA)

[Rapier]

Maybe the reviews are lackluster for good reasons?

I did read a lot of them and I thought most of them were fair.

Shadowrun fans are so used to having a large number of errors/inconsistencies in the books that we pivot and take it in stride but when you compare to Paizos Pathfinder 2, Dnd 5th, Chaosium, Modiphius and god forbid, Cubicle 7, the quality assurance processes are in a different league.

I myself find this edition ok so far, its a good base and I still have to see the edge mechanics in action to properly evaluate and I like competitive Technomancers.

My pet pieve is the character generation system being different from Karma use in the game, I always tought it was a needless addition to supposedly simplify chargen when most of us just try not to make mistakes or try to arbitrage both systems.   

Sometimes people whine needlessly, sometimes its fair criticism.

[steelybran]

Position	Title	Score	Number of ratings	Release date
1	Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit	4.8/5	42	August 01, 2019
2	Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook	2.8/5	19	August 26, 2019
3	Eclipse Phase Second Edition	5/5	13	August 09, 2019

Just ignoring the review scores for a moment, just look at that top 3! Cyberpunk Red, Shadowrun and Eclipse Phase dominating the sales. Could this be a revival of the cyberpunk genre? Sure, new editions of course, but still.

Cyberpunk 2077 is helping boost the genre's visibility.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

3). Do I personally want Catalyst to stop production and sell the IP? I want Catalyst to improve, and if they do, I want them to prosper for their effort. If they cannot improve, or can but refuse, then perhaps it would be best for the fans and the IP (if not the company themselves) if the IP did fall into the hands of someone whom would treat it better.

For the most part, this is not a reflection upon the authors and freelancers at all, and more on the business practices of the shot callers of the company.

This.

So very much this.

At least since the 5e Core Book was released ~6 years ago, Catalyst Shadowrun products have been plagued by crappy editing.  Every single product.
Now, the smaller the product the easier it was to miss.
The less "crunch" (rules), the easier it was to overlook.
The lack of editing was still there in every product.

Not only has Catalyst shown zero interest in improving their editing, they do not even appear to be apologetic for the lack of quality.

For example, if I was Catalyst's editor (y'all can sling all the jokes you want about this as the argument is valid even if the jokes aren't) and the 6th Core Book was my first product...
I would expect to be fired for the shambles that was printed.
Fired.

Not at Catalyst though...

Do I want 6th, Shadowrun, or Catalyst to fail?  No.  Well, kind of.  Not that I want any of them to go away....  But I really would like the RPG community as a whole to rise up and say:
"No.  We aren't buying your mistakes anymore.
Fix yo' shit!"


Instead, what we get is a few sycophants with their Catalyst Brand Cybereyes applying the Rose Filter every time they look at a product and go into crusader mode to shut down any and all criticism as "unfair" and "unwarranted."
Going so far as to harass critics into deciding to not post on "their" forums.

[adzling]

The fish rots from the head.

All the issues with Catalyst can be attributed to management or lack thereof.

I also cannot fathom why some of the die hard apologists have to deny reality but you're never going to get through to them as in their eyes Catalyst can do no wrong.

One of the main apologists on this board often brags about how he has set the "ignore" option on folks he disagrees with. Talk about blindered / echo chamber thinking.

You mostly only see them in locations where the content is heavily moderated in their favor.

Places with open discussions tend to quickly reflect the general, knowledgeable persons opinion about Catalyst and 6e.

[Michael Chandra]

I do not block people for disagreeing with them. I block them for conduct I refuse to bear. I can understand why you lied on Reddit about your NDA violations, to make yourself look better and your punishment unfair rather than well deserved, but do not understand why you would ever lie here about why I block people or lie about FJ moderating in my favour, when reality is so vastly different and your claims can actually be publicly disproven.

Also, I am not an apologist. But with the toxic attacks I simply do not find room to post my own disagreements in a way people manage to pay attention to them. I have posted plenty of things I am disappointed with or disagree with, I simply haven't made any personal attacks on CGL so instead it doesn't blip on your 'I am sticking to reddit because I am too negative' radar

Tl;dr Anyone who claims CGL cannot do wrong in my view hasn't paid attention.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm sure I'm classified among the "die hard apologists" by those assembling such lists.

And presumably as such, I'd like to say that I certainly view 6we has having its room for improvement.  If I were not on the errata team, I'd surely have been a vocal participant in the various errata compilation threads.  I certainly had my moments of demanding 5e errata over the past few years prior to now having to put the work in where my mouth was

I bought my copy of 6we thru the CGL store.  Not because I'm a CGL apologist, but because they managed to entice me from my usual vendor-of-choice in DTRPG by way of the free .pdf copy that came with my Gen Con purchase of the physical book. But seeing as how I got my copy via CGL, I don't have the desire to buy another copy at DTRPG just to leave a review.  But if I did, yeah I don't think I could give it a full 5 stars given all the errata that I personally feel it needs.  However I like it, even as is, better than 5e and I'm quite confident most, if not all, of its serious problems will soon be worked out. And for a point of reference: how long was it until 5e saw a errata doc?  Hell, it STILL needs very serious errata. Hotfix in both cases came out very quick, and I'm not in a position to know, much less SAY, when 6we errata will be published, but I'll eat my hat if it's anywhere near the 2 year mark 5e had.

I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again: I absolutely agree there are things that need to be fixed.  My problem with voicing those kinds of opinion is I can't share the specifics of what is being done about it.  But I'm quite optimistic that by the time a comprehensive wave of errata comes out, most complaints should be addressed.

Another thought regarding DTRPG's ratings: Had I bought from them, I'd have given it a 4 star review.  But, since I had the good fortune to have been at Gen Con, I got my hard copy and my accordingly my free pdf thru CGL.  Now what else do more than a few people have in common with me who bought from CGL rather than DTRPG? Lots of those people probably were also at Gen Con and getting their free .pdfs as well.  Of course I don't have any sales figures from either site to back this theory up, but still if it does mean anything then those who bought at Gen Con are probably also strongly correllating with those who PLAYED Shadowrun at Gen Con this year.  I GM'd 5e all thru the con, but I was privy to GM chatter and I have every reason to believe that 6we demos went exceptionally well.  What I'm getting at here is those who are buying from DTRPG may (MAY!) be artificially less impressed than the total population of people who have/have played 6we.  Do I have proof? As I said, no.  Do I strongly suspect it based on my anecdotal experience? Yes.

[Lormyr]

For what it is worth SSD, whatever anyone may choose to label you, I always enjoy our exchanges, even though we disagree often enough. You are logical, well articulated, thoughtful in your positions/responses, and you take non-rude but opinionated criticism well. You make a good front man for the errata team imo.

[Hephaestus]

I do not block people for disagreeing with them. I block them for conduct I refuse to bear. I can understand why you lied on Reddit about your NDA violations, to make yourself look better and your punishment unfair rather than well deserved, but do not understand why you would ever lie here about why I block people or lie about FJ moderating in my favour, when reality is so vastly different and your claims can actually be publicly disproven.

Also, I am not an apologist. But with the toxic attacks I simply do not find room to post my own disagreements in a way people manage to pay attention to them. I have posted plenty of things I am disappointed with or disagree with, I simply haven't made any personal attacks on CGL so instead it doesn't blip on your 'I am sticking to reddit because I am too negative' radar

Tl;dr Anyone who claims CGL cannot do wrong in my view hasn't paid attention.

To be fair, you blocked me for saying I was tired of people pushing GM fiat/house rules as the solution to all the issues presented in SR6, and that CGL needs to take open and transparent action to fix the issues in 6th as it is now. That is apparently a ridiculous attack against both you and CGL.

As the game stands, it needs a lot of work. And while I understand the errata team is bound by NDA, this is one on those times when CGL needs to lift the curtain and show progress. Saying "we're working on it" may be all the folks here can say, but it does nothing to allay the fears/irritations/anger of the community at present. This is the time for community engagement, to test rules changes and get more people on board with the proposed improvements. As I have stated across multiple threads: Do not tell a customer you're fixing it, show them. Showing progress engenders far more good will, even if progress is slow.

[adzling]

I'm sure I'm classified among the "die hard apologists" by those assembling such lists.

no Stainless, you're awesome. You're dedicated and enthusiastic and recognize when things have shortcomings.

You are everything an errata member should be.

I salute you.

[adzling]

....I can understand why you lied on Reddit about your NDA violations, to make yourself look better and your punishment unfair rather than well deserved....

I did not lie, what I posted was what went down.
You can disagree but you would be wrong.
I was kicked from the errata team for reporting/ confirming what was said in a podcast.
Or at least that's what I was told, if that was incorrect that's not on me, that's on Catalyst.
As I have said here and on reddit I am OK with that.
I have no issue with Catalyst removing me from the errata team.

Anyhoo I should not have allowed myself to have been drawn back into this debate, it adds nothing to the dialog for anyone.

Apologies for interrupting your day.

Adios!

[Hephaestus]

To be fair, you blocked me for saying I was tired of people pushing GM fiat/house rules as the solution to all the issues presented in SR6, and that CGL needs to take open and transparent action to fix the issues in 6th as it is now.

I did not.

Qualities always were gm territory. It's ridiculous to pretend GMs have no agency. And Impaired is still abusable even at 1 attribute capped at -3, so no matter what the GM still needs to decide. Just like they had to with Allergy and Corporate SINs in SR5, or Reduced Sense, or, or, and so on and so forth.

Since it is your topic, I'm not going to bother expressing my personal gripes there. But my lesson is learned and I won't bother helping you with rules again, since all you're going to do is twist it to excuse a ridiculous attack against both me and CG. If I wanted that attitude, I'd join reddit.

The topic of conversation at the time was the Impaired Attribute, so I was being a little generic in this thread. My apologies. But things like this go to support adzling's point that members of this community tied to CGL in one way or another tend to be standoffish with people upset with the books/PDFs they paid for.

And to back up what Lormyr said, the CGL team and affiliates are dealing with a lot of venom, and it wears on them. But until things are fixed, its not going to go away. So again I ask any and all of you tied to CGL to push them as hard as you can to show some transparency in fixing these issues.

[Michael Chandra]

I already explained to you in private that I had not blocked you at that point, but well before then. I fail to understand why you are still making that claim.

Furthermore, I am not 'tied' to CGL. I am a volunteer demo agent, which is way less tied to CGL than being an errata team agent. I had 'I do not work for CGL' as my personal title for years. I have literally never written any CGL content. I have not even been able to attend any cons to GM at. Furthermore, there are former errata team members and present demo agents who are negative about SR6, so there is no hive mind in play whatsoever. And the hard-tied individuals show far more manners than you and I, so the standoffish claim is far from correct.


Something I should note: There are plenty of reasons to be mad at CGL. There are plenty of improvements to demand from them. And that is why I really do not understand the need to invent claims. To make incorrect claims about who said what, about the moderation involved, about the motives of those involved, about the acts taken during the design process of the current edition. Why poison the well, when you already have enough ammunition to request they both do better and prove sincerity about the ongoing errata-process? You have every right to want better, so why paint CGL in a worse light? What is the point to a contest about who can bash the most subtly or the most harsh?

[Hephaestus]

I already explained to you in private that I had not blocked you at that point, but well before then. I fail to understand why you are still making that claim.

Prior to today, that was the only PM you had ever sent me (since joining, my inbox only has 6 messages). So until today, I had no reason to think otherwise. But thank you for letting me know that you simultaneously didn't care to read my posts, and got mad after responding to content you claimed not to be reading. Also, thank you for taking me off block long enough to send me more PMs today and then immediately block me again so I cannot respond. That's how to have a good conversation.

And as a paying customer, I have every right to expect the company selling me content to sell me content that is of good quality. What I got from GenCon was not. The 9-page hot-fix did not address a lot of the issues, and CGL has been notably quiet about what progress has been made to fix it. And that is what has me irritated the most. The Errata team have their lips stitched about what progress has been made, or when we the players will see any of it.

And believe me, I wanted 6th ed to be good. I wanted to be able to bring it to my current group and get them hyped, and get my GM revved up about doing a 6we campaign. Instead, I got an unfinished $50 book that has been released for over a month with no clear scheduled fixes beyond the hot-fix.

[tenchi2a]

I already explained to you in private that I had not blocked you at that point, but well before then. I fail to understand why you are still making that claim.

Furthermore, I am not 'tied' to CGL. I am a volunteer demo agent, which is way less tied to CGL than being an errata team agent. I had 'I do not work for CGL' as my personal title for years. I have literally never written any CGL content. I have not even been able to attend any cons to GM at. Furthermore, there are former errata team members and present demo agents who are negative about SR6, so there is no hive mind in play whatsoever. And the hard-tied individuals show far more manners than you and I, so the standoffish claim is far from correct.


Something I should note: There are plenty of reasons to be mad at CGL. There are plenty of improvements to demand from them. And that is why I really do not understand the need to invent claims. To make incorrect claims about who said what, about the moderation involved, about the motives of those involved, about the acts taken during the design process of the current edition. Why poison the well, when you already have enough ammunition to request they both do better and prove sincerity about the ongoing errata-process? You have every right to want better, so why paint CGL in a worse light? What is the point to a contest about who can bash the most subtly or the most harsh?

First I have to say that I left the forum for a time because I felt that nothing would ever get done about my issues with 6th edition and the attacks I felt I was getting for not loving this edition. I see that has not stopped so I will probably be taking another leave from the site.

Now on to the response.
It's simple, as it stands now is seems as if at least the Shadowrun section of CGL couldn't care less what the fans have to say.
The lack of transparency from them Has already poisoned the well of goodwill.
So when a poster sings their praises, he/she is automatically the target of that venom.
You can't counter everyone's anger over a product and not expect them to strike back.
And I am sorry to say (and maybe this is not your intention), but you do come off as aggressively pro CGL a lot in your post.
So you and others set yourselves up as a target (however misguided).
Even under your own admission there are issues with 6th and form what most people outside CGL and the errata team can see nothing is getting done.
So they want people to pay their hard earned money for a game that is poorly edited, has know issues (hence the errata teams work), and glaring mechanical drops in logic (smoke only works if it doesn't effect you).
So when you defend it or parrot the "Errata is being worked on" line, they have a target.