[Blue_Lion]

It does not work. The rules give two ways to target spells (barring the ill conceived FAQ entry that doesn't give any clarification): LoS and Touch. LoS has to be direct and "natural vision". Vision that is paid for with essence counts as natural in this case.

With Radar implants, you never actually "spot" a target. The radar implant detects the target then displays an image map over your vision of the target. It's no different than linking an implanted security camera up to your image link. The data is being recorded, processed, and then fed to you. Sure, it's live, but it's not a natural vision by any means, the image is rendered from scratch by the expert driver. Sight is not the natural way for the sense to be used, just the easiest way for humans to interpret it.

How is this different from cybereyes? Cybereyes are designed to function as similar to human eyes as possible. They simply pass along the direct image being seen to the brain just like a normal eye would. Since they aren't built yet, we can't actually know exactly what is entailed, but we do know that the image does not have to be completely created from scratch because its already present.

Keep in mind that just paying essence for an implant does not make it automatically work for targeting spells. Look at the two ways I've listed above. Cyberlimbs do not allow a character the ability to cast through them (reading the test, only enhancements used to spot work).

No I said that the rules do not say it does not work. That weather or not it works is realy up to how you define sight and is up to your group to decide if does or not. Unless you can point to where the rules say it does not work.

This device emits ultrawideband and terahertz radar in short stepped-frequency pulses. An expert system analyzes the Doppler shift in the bounced signals and converts the information into a three-dimensional “map” that overlays (or replaces) the user’s visual senses.

It makes it extremely clear that this isn't sight. It's a completely generated image that overlays or replaces the user's visual senses. It's not a vision mode. This is made clear both by the implant type (Headware rather than a cybereye mod) and the fact that it lets you "see" (emphasis the book's, not mine). Any attempt to claim it's sight is laughable at best. Comparing it to something like Mage Sight Goggles (which is sight since it's a direct fiber optic cable. It's no different than using a mirror.) is similarly a horrible excuse to let it work.

That said, there is a difference between a computer generated image and a computer filtered image. Sight through cybereyes may be computer filtered and cropped (and enhanced by those different eye mods), but they are not 100% computer generated.

Ok first if you going to try to bring in rules at least check  And read the whole section. such as stoping the sentence before they say the cybeware can "see" threw walls.

Page 183 Shadow run 20th aniverstiy
"A metahuman spellcaster can target any one or anything that she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enahments paid ofr with essence can be used to spot targets, but any technolagical vision aids that substute themself for the charters own visual senses-Camearas, electronic binoculars, matricxs feeds, ect canot be used."

So that is saying if it is a cyber ware you paid for with essense it  can be used to spot a target. That means the question is can the radar sensor spot the target and does it substute itself for the charters own visual senses.

Page 36 Augmention.
"This device emits ultrawideband and terahertz radar in short steped frequency pulses. An expert system analyzes the doppler shift in the bounced signals and converts the information tino a three dimetnial "map" that over laps (or replaces) the users's visual senses, simlar in some ways to ultrasound. The advantage to the radar sensor is that ican "see" through walls and other materals, which appear as trasnlucent."
Page 37.
"The radar sesnor uses the same Visibilty modifiers as utlra sound."

So to me that seams to say it is beeing treated as a non-stanadard form of sight for the game mechanics. Now you could try the tecnoligal visual aids part of it that that whould mean ignoring that it is a cyber enhament paid for with essence.

Now then shall we define line of sight as a spell range?
Page 203 Shadow run 20 ed.
"All spells have a range at witch they can be cast. For most spells, the range is line of sight (LOS) If a caster can see the target, reguardless of distance it can be affected."
Nothing about it beeing direct  or unbroken. The only spells that are stoped by normal objects are inderect combat spells you can read on them on page 204.
I could point out that your radio in your car and cell phone are LOS radio sysems but they can work even if you can not see the radio tower such as you are in your bathroom but that is not the rules of shadow run.

I think the difrence between computer generated and filtered is in your mind on this one. A computer filtered image can not be tranmited directly to the human brain. The human brain does not process light but instead process electrical impulses. So your cyber eyes have to capture incoming light be it normal visual spectrum or infred. Map out the incoming light into a "map" convert that map into electrical impules and send it into the brain VIA the direct nural interface. So it is not a mater of touching up a image in the same form but generating it in a new form.

I whould recomend if you want to contune this read threw the link I posted earler and deside if you truly have something new to add istead of just rehasing what was already covered once.

By the way defining enhaments as the things sloted in a device does not work because those are not paid for with essense and cyber eyes are not a enhament in that sense so whould totaly block it as the enhaments inside the eye-cyber eye are not paid for with essense but the eye is, as well as there are no bio-ware enhaments that fall logical line. Enhament/Augmetnion are kinda interchable terms for cyber-ware just looking at the text in augmention that becomes clear that the writers interchange them when talking cyber/bio ware.

But let me see if I understand what you think the rule says. If I look at some one and tuch them with my cyber hand I can not touch a range touch spell on them because I can not spot them with the hand, Is that your point?

[All4BigGuns]

Note the quotation marks around "see". This means that the word is used primarily to give the reader--who may not be up on all sorts of scientific jargon--a frame of reference to help them understand the device. It does not mean that it would count as Vision for the purpose of spell targeting. That said, I have no problem with a sniper using it in conjunction with a sniper rifle and APDS rounds to kill their target, but that sniper isn't restricted to "natural vision" to target with his rifle.

[Blue_Lion]

Note the quotation marks around "see". This means that the word is used primarily to give the reader--who may not be up on all sorts of scientific jargon--a frame of reference to help them understand the device. It does not mean that it would count as Vision for the purpose of spell targeting. That said, I have no problem with a sniper using it in conjunction with a sniper rifle and APDS rounds to kill their target, but that sniper isn't restricted to "natural vision" to target with his rifle.

That is a judment call on your part and is your perrugtive. But with natural vision is not required for cyberware but that it can spot the target. To spot is this case could mean to precive or locate. Cybeware even cyber-eyes are in essense never natural vision as they are sytnetic replment for your natural vision.

The thing is most GMs have the knee jerk no idea beacuse they think it gives the player/party an umbeatable edge, but the truth is that using ways to cast from behind wall technics places the PC in a no win senero. Either the corparate wage mages running secerty whould have the same implant, or be in a safe room with the whole place wired with fiberoptics and mage sight googles. Meaning if any sensor detects them they are dead, if he detects guards going down do to vital monoritng and searches for them they are dead. You can't easly geek a mage in a WII FI shielded safe room lobing spells at you from concealed fibor optic cables.

Please check page 11 for a picture of what this type of imaging radar looks like http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6834.msg120589#msg120589

[All4BigGuns]

My reason for "no" is that magic and tech aren't supposed to play nice, and while cyber eyes pretty well replicate natural vision nigh-perfectly, a radar sensor is just flat out different from any natural sense and is purely an artificial construct. Magic just isn't going to work with it all that well. That said, I might let them try, but I might pull out something akin to a "good hits, bad misses table" for the spell.

[Blue_Lion]

My reason for "no" is that magic and tech aren't supposed to play nice, and while cyber eyes pretty well replicate natural vision nigh-perfectly, a radar sensor is just flat out different from any natural sense and is purely an artificial construct. Magic just isn't going to work with it all that well. That said, I might let them try, but I might pull out something akin to a "good hits, bad misses table" for the spell.

Actualy you block it with the fundmentals of how they cast magic their tradition. Athou the rules do not clearly say no, you can say your tradtion says can't be done so your own belife on how magic works blocks it. Maybe allow them life time chance for a strait edge test (4) no rule of six no spending edge to reroll to over come a self limitiation. That whould be how if I was gming and did not want them to open that can of worms.

Rember it is not that magic and tech can not get along well it is how mages precive and use magic that makes it uncapatable. Many spells can adress or even augment tech issues, and their is even some tech that augments magic (such as the glove in war). Infact mana tech is based on finding a way for tech and magic to interact with eachouther. Also I recall a tradition that incorperates tech into itself a mage from that tadition might have an easer time using such a implant but I whould not sugest that to a player.

But most external vision aids are blocked by rules. The processing sensor be it an eye or cybor eye must be in the casters aura (paid for with essense) as the spell has to be from the casters aura to the target.

[Mäx]

Please check page 11 for a picture of what this type of imaging radar looks like http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6834.msg120589#msg120589

It doesn't matter how pretty picture the software draws, it still can't be used for spell targeting, except possibly for ritual spell casting.

[Blue_Lion]

Please check page 11 for a picture of what this type of imaging radar looks like http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6834.msg120589#msg120589

It doesn't matter how pretty picture the software draws, it still can't be used for spell targeting, except possibly for ritual spell casting.

And where exactly does it say that? The cyberware only has to spot the target. Spot in this case most likly means locate with visual senses.

By your logic I could say the pretty picure from the soft ware in you cyber eyes does not count. Becuase fundementaly to the brain it is the same thing. Your as I said your brain does not process light but the impulses it resives for visual data, and the DNI whould require software to convert a map of light to visual information for your brain to process. The hang up as their is no rule that clearly blocks it but instead what is beeing called into question is peoples judment of what works. To you it might seam it clearly does not work but I have yet to see any one post a rule that says it clearly does not. This has already been hashed out once in 11 page thread you are not adding any thing new other than your personal opion.

[Reiper]

Even if the 'rules' do not specifically forbid it, there is no logical way a GM should ever allow it because it completely unbalances the game.

Magic is pretty insanely powerful in ShadowRun as it is. By removing their primary weakness, you completely unbalance the game. The person who brought up the mage in the sealed room using the sense to cover the entire building is a perfect example of what would happen. And players would end up doing something similar too, making unbeatable players, or they'd end up having to stack the opposing team so hard that non-casters would have absolutely no chance to survive the battle.

But I see it very closely to how Running Wild describes the Biodrones (I'm paraphrasing, the book isn't at the table) by utilizing animals who's senses are naturally so much keener than their own, it causes perception issues, at least unless they have the 'ware to enhance their own perceptions to that level.

This would be similar, but even to a greater extent because the brain is not designed to utilize radar technology or vision at all. Blind people can use echolocation (sic), but it is extremely limited in its actual functionality.

[WellsIDidIt]

Ok first if you going to try to bring in rules at least check  And read the whole section. such as stoping the sentence before they say the cybeware can "see" threw walls.

I brought that up, note the emphasis on the word see. It's in quotations because you aren't actually seeing with the implant. You're seeing a generated image drawn by the expert driver.

So to me that seams to say it is beeing treated as a non-stanadard form of sight for the game mechanics. Now you could try the tecnoligal visual aids part of it that that whould mean ignoring that it is a cyber enhament paid for with essence.

It isn't a vision mode and you don't see with it. It replaces (or overlays) actual visual sense with images that are created by an expert driver. These images are a visual representation of what the radar is bringing in. Even the text refuses to say that the character can see with this implant, choosing instead to use "see" to make sure there is a clear distinction.

Sure, the radar implant is used to pick up the target, but it's no different than hearing him or touching him with a cyberlimb. The character is not spotting the target. The character isn't even using the radar to spot the target. The radar detects the target and draws it on a screen that the character can see. If the data coming in is not actually vision, the character cannot target through it.

Nothing about it beeing direct  or unbroken. The only spells that are stoped by normal objects are inderect combat spells you can read on them on page 204.
I could point out that your radio in your car and cell phone are LOS radio sysems but they can work even if you can not see the radio tower such as you are in your bathroom but that is not the rules of shadow run.

Well you ignored it as everyone always seems to, but reread the section and then reread the radar section. I'll go ahead and post the two big differences between them.

If a caster can see the target, regardless of distance it can be affected.

it can “see”

Now you could try to claim that this difference only applies to looking through walls, but radar is treated as ultrasound for most purposes and ultrasound uses the same quotations in its breakdown.

So, not only do the entries specifically state why this isn't actually sight, they also make sure to emphasize that the sense isn't actual sight. There is no more argument left for it to work.

But let me see if I understand what you think the rule says. If I look at some one and tuch them with my cyber hand I can not touch a range touch spell on them because I can not spot them with the hand, Is that your point?

You cannot cast a touch spell through an bio or cyber enhancement. The only bio or cyber enhancement targeting that is allowed is specifically through devices used to spot. In your example it wouldn't matter if you were looking at them or not, the cyberhand would not work.

Let's ask another question though. You've got cyberyes with an image link. The hacker on your team paints your target on your image link even though he's three blocks away. Note, he doesn't stream the info to you, he actually goes in and edits your image link feed. Can you spot your target for the purpose of spells? Is this considered natural vision (since the image link is paid for with essence) or is it simply another case of being able to "see" the target, but not actually see the target?

[Carmody]

First of all I am not in favor of allowing radar implant as a way to cast spells, for gameplay reasons.
I perfectly understand that it may be unbalancing, as both runners and ennemies can use it, but I just do not like the idea of killing through walls and I think this particular limitation of mages shall be kept.

That being said, if I try to look for technological reasons not to allow it I tend to fall short and to agree with Blue_Lion.
I work in phone camera image processing domain, so I have quite a good idea of the amount of processing needed to produce a correct image and I can tell you that is far more that you can imagine. Therefore all arguments like "They simply pass along the direct image being seen to the brain just like a normal eye would" are just plain wrong (I took this one among other, no offense intended). This is computer generated vision, especially when enhancements like low light or IR are added.

[Blue_Lion]

Ok first if you going to try to bring in rules at least check  And read the whole section. such as stoping the sentence before they say the cybeware can "see" threw walls.

I brought that up, note the emphasis on the word see. It's in quotations because you aren't actually seeing with the implant. You're seeing a generated image drawn by the expert driver.

So to me that seams to say it is beeing treated as a non-stanadard form of sight for the game mechanics. Now you could try the tecnoligal visual aids part of it that that whould mean ignoring that it is a cyber enhament paid for with essence.

It isn't a vision mode and you don't see with it. It replaces (or overlays) actual visual sense with images that are created by an expert driver. These images are a visual representation of what the radar is bringing in. Even the text refuses to say that the character can see with this implant, choosing instead to use "see" to make sure there is a clear distinction.

Sure, the radar implant is used to pick up the target, but it's no different than hearing him or touching him with a cyberlimb. The character is not spotting the target. The character isn't even using the radar to spot the target. The radar detects the target and draws it on a screen that the character can see. If the data coming in is not actually vision, the character cannot target through it.

Nothing about it beeing direct  or unbroken. The only spells that are stoped by normal objects are inderect combat spells you can read on them on page 204.
I could point out that your radio in your car and cell phone are LOS radio sysems but they can work even if you can not see the radio tower such as you are in your bathroom but that is not the rules of shadow run.

Well you ignored it as everyone always seems to, but reread the section and then reread the radar section. I'll go ahead and post the two big differences between them.

If a caster can see the target, regardless of distance it can be affected.

it can “see”

Now you could try to claim that this difference only applies to looking through walls, but radar is treated as ultrasound for most purposes and ultrasound uses the same quotations in its breakdown.

So, not only do the entries specifically state why this isn't actually sight, they also make sure to emphasize that the sense isn't actual sight. There is no more argument left for it to work.

But let me see if I understand what you think the rule says. If I look at some one and tuch them with my cyber hand I can not touch a range touch spell on them because I can not spot them with the hand, Is that your point?

You cannot cast a touch spell through an bio or cyber enhancement. The only bio or cyber enhancement targeting that is allowed is specifically through devices used to spot. In your example it wouldn't matter if you were looking at them or not, the cyberhand would not work.

Let's ask another question though. You've got cyberyes with an image link. The hacker on your team paints your target on your image link even though he's three blocks away. Note, he doesn't stream the info to you, he actually goes in and edits your image link feed. Can you spot your target for the purpose of spells? Is this considered natural vision (since the image link is paid for with essence) or is it simply another case of being able to "see" the target, but not actually see the target?

First most of what you say is based on bias over what "see' means. It uses visabilty modifiers and relaces or over lays vision senses that means you can spot with it as it becomes your vision. As spot is visualy locate. relisticaly the way the image is generated in the brain is no difrent than the cyber eyes.

And are you saying a mage with a bio enhanment to replace his skin with armor could never cast a touch spell?

Second that is clearly blocked as it says you can not use things streamed over the matrix. Even thou he is editing the image link feed it is beeing done over the matrix so he is streaming his editing and using form electronic vision enhanment that is not was not paid for with the mages essense. To cound what is beeing used to gather the visual information must have been paid for with essence witch efectivly makes it part of your boady.

[Blue_Lion]

First of all I am not in favor of allowing radar implant as a way to cast spells, for gameplay reasons.
I perfectly understand that it may be unbalancing, as both runners and ennemies can use it, but I just do not like the idea of killing through walls and I think this particular limitation of mages shall be kept.

That being said, if I try to look for technological reasons not to allow it I tend to fall short and to agree with Blue_Lion.
I work in phone camera image processing domain, so I have quite a good idea of the amount of processing needed to produce a correct image and I can tell you that is far more that you can imagine. Therefore all arguments like "They simply pass along the direct image being seen to the brain just like a normal eye would" are just plain wrong (I took this one among other, no offense intended). This is computer generated vision, especially when enhancements like low light or IR are added.

That is why I think that there defence that only cyber ware that copies normal sight works as if you understand it and how the brain works from a technical stand point there is no difrence in what the brain presives. And both are highly processed. The reson to limit is blance, but giving that it is so common for people to think that it is difrent here means the mage may also been raised to belive it is difrent with a bias blocking it built into every traditional mage tradition. So athou I can not find a rule saying that it can't be done I can find a way to justfy it not beeing done. In the end thou wether or not it works is up to the GM and group to deside.

[Falconer]

It really is this simple... the line developers have come outright and said it does not work and it is not the intent of the rules to work in this way. 

If you need more than that...  It is magic... magic follows it's own rules and is for most purposes incompatible with tech and ware.


Only direct vision replacements function for casting spells.   Even if you implant an ocular drone like G'kar in B5... it works as a cybereye until it's removed... at that point it no longer functions to cast spells.   So long as it is a cybereye it works.

All this about cyberlimbs and touch spells is a distraction... as the rules for touch spells have nothing to do with the spellcasting rules for establishing LOS.   It's a red herring and irrelevant.   For those rules again.. you paid essence and it's part of you so long as it stays connected.   (that said.. one GM was amused at an adept with the grapple hand being used as a 'ranged' astral weapon since it stayed attached to me, and there's no reason that couldn't also be used to deliver touch spells).


If it relies on imagelink to process signals from another sensor to act as a visual overlay... it's a no go.   Why?  Because the rules and official clarifications say so.   That's the nature of rules.

[blackangel]

As I play mostly mages character, it would be great to be able to cast threw walls. But as I also master sometimes I probably would not allow it...

Hearing about radar once again, I think of a way to handle it (for me). As it is an overlay, I will use it as an AR (it doesn't matter if your radar is internal or not, you just pay essence cost to have it always with you). Which also prevent some fun things like assensing someone behind a wall using a radar.

[All4BigGuns]

If ya wanna allow 'casting through walls', I do have one house rule suggestion. Just ignore the 'fluff reason' that the Grounding thing stopped working and use the rules for it from SR2050.