[Falconer]

The entire point of a pistol whip is to hit them with something hard and solid like brass knuckles... 

The base of the grip is the best spot... while you can wield it like a hammer most people don't... because that barrel gets HOT!   Most people similarly don't use the top of the gun because you're likely to screw up the sights top mounted accessories...   But physical sights don't matter much with smartguns...


The 'clubs' skill itself reflects training in using the gun as an improvised weapon as a club.

Even a rifle you don't change your grip... you only shift your posture... and strike with the shaft/barrel of the 'staff' if you don't have a top accessory... or the butt... or the pointy end if you have a bayonet turning it into a spear.


Melee hardened AK-97/98 with bayonet was one of the more fun weapons I've used in game.  (the character didn't even have automatics skill... ganger who tended to resort to spray and pray and defaulting if he had to shoot and couldn't get into a melee).

[Thrass]

I don't think the base of the grip is considerably more hard and solid then any other part of the gun.

IIRC correctly they tested lethality of a pistol whip in the following episode of Deadliest Warrior
http://www.sidereel.com/Deadliest_Warrior/season-2/episode-3
edit looked it up, the episode is correct:
brass knuckles are at:  ~30:40
pistol whip is directly after that at: ~32:50
(see how they wield it and what results they are getting in psi (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound-force_per_square_inch))

Yes, they use a revolver, yes it is deadly, no they don't change grip.
Yes I have absolutely no idea if any of you know better.

Kinetic energy delivered by a 'club' is speed times mass².
If you hold it like a hammer your pistol may(!) get "longer" and with a longer 'lever' you get more speed (and less control).
Question is if you can reliably get more kinetic energy if you hold it any different way and if it makes a difference.

I have absolutely no knowledge how one holds a rifle in meelee though.

[JoeNapalm]

... while you can wield it like a hammer most people don't... because that barrel gets HOT!   

Well...yeah...a lot of  people don't do this because you could shoot yourself, also. 

In my professional opinion, use of a firearm as a melee weapon is reserved for oh-no-moments. If you're looking to not kill the guy, don't pull a gun. If you pulled a gun to shoot them, shoot them.

Sure, people can get up on you (if you screwed up), and a butt-stroke with a shotgun is quite satisfying...but simply "getting out of the way" of a contact shot isn't as easy as you might think. Bullets are really fast, and a pro isn't going to stick his gun out where you can smack it away.

Unless someone is actively grappling, you could shoot somebody at kissing distance with your eyes closed.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[RHat]

... while you can wield it like a hammer most people don't... because that barrel gets HOT!   

Well...yeah...a lot of  people don't do this because you could shoot yourself, also. 

In my professional opinion, use of a firearm as a melee weapon is reserved for oh-no-moments. If you're looking to not kill the guy, don't pull a gun. If you pulled a gun to shoot them, shoot them.

Sure, people can get up on you (if you screwed up), and a butt-stroke with a shotgun is quite satisfying...but simply "getting out of the way" of a contact shot isn't as easy as you might think. Bullets are really fast, and a pro isn't going to stick his gun out where you can smack it away.

Unless someone is actively grappling, you could shoot somebody at kissing distance with your eyes closed.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Assuming that the two are within a certain distance of each other, there's no such thing as putting the gun somewhere the other guy can't keep the business end away from him.  No such thing.  Active grappling is not required, but is exceedingly probable in that circumstance.

[JoeNapalm]

... while you can wield it like a hammer most people don't... because that barrel gets HOT!   

Well...yeah...a lot of  people don't do this because you could shoot yourself, also. 

In my professional opinion, use of a firearm as a melee weapon is reserved for oh-no-moments. If you're looking to not kill the guy, don't pull a gun. If you pulled a gun to shoot them, shoot them.

Sure, people can get up on you (if you screwed up), and a butt-stroke with a shotgun is quite satisfying...but simply "getting out of the way" of a contact shot isn't as easy as you might think. Bullets are really fast, and a pro isn't going to stick his gun out where you can smack it away.

Unless someone is actively grappling, you could shoot somebody at kissing distance with your eyes closed.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Assuming that the two are within a certain distance of each other, there's no such thing as putting the gun somewhere the other guy can't keep the business end away from him.  No such thing.  Active grappling is not required, but is exceedingly probable in that circumstance.

What is your definition of "a certain distance"? Based on the UCR, about half of all gunfights occur at 0 - 5 ft.

The current FBI HQC pistol qualification course starts at a distance of 3 ft, then moves out from there. That's melee range. Anything closer would be grappling.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

[RHat]

... while you can wield it like a hammer most people don't... because that barrel gets HOT!   

Well...yeah...a lot of  people don't do this because you could shoot yourself, also. 

In my professional opinion, use of a firearm as a melee weapon is reserved for oh-no-moments. If you're looking to not kill the guy, don't pull a gun. If you pulled a gun to shoot them, shoot them.

Sure, people can get up on you (if you screwed up), and a butt-stroke with a shotgun is quite satisfying...but simply "getting out of the way" of a contact shot isn't as easy as you might think. Bullets are really fast, and a pro isn't going to stick his gun out where you can smack it away.

Unless someone is actively grappling, you could shoot somebody at kissing distance with your eyes closed.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Assuming that the two are within a certain distance of each other, there's no such thing as putting the gun somewhere the other guy can't keep the business end away from him.  No such thing.  Active grappling is not required, but is exceedingly probable in that circumstance.

What is your definition of "a certain distance"? Based on the UCR, about half of all gunfights occur at 0 - 5 ft.

The current FBI HQC pistol qualification course starts at a distance of 3 ft, then moves out from there. That's melee range. Anything closer would be grappling.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

An individual's reach will vary.  But if you're in range to get a hand on it, that's the range I'm talking about.  Grappling is not determined by range.

[JoeNapalm]

So, arm's reach. There absolutely is such a thing.

A standard CQB drill is to strike/fend with your weak side while drawing and firing from Position 2 (tucked against your side with the weapon canted so the slide can cycle). You're not presenting the weapon, because at that range you are not aiming.

Many law enforcement agencies train to fight at that range, because that's the range they fight at most often.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

[Mantis]

Good mental image Joe. I think most folks think you are always presenting the gun forward rather than back with the weak side forward in this circumstance. Sort of like knife fighting that way if you've trained in Arnis (or escrima or kali), where you parry with your weaker forward hand and cut, slash and stab with the stronger hand back. Movies screw up people's perception of how you actually use weapons.

[RHat]

So, arm's reach. There absolutely is such a thing.

A standard CQB drill is to strike/fend with your weak side while drawing and firing from Position 2 (tucked against your side with the weapon canted so the slide can cycle). You're not presenting the weapon, because at that range you are not aiming.

Many law enforcement agencies train to fight at that range, because that's the range they fight at most often.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

Deploying a firearm is far from their best option at that range.  Hence why most police forces are also equipped with blunt weapons.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

In some cases I'd agree, RHat, but it's definitely situational; you can't make a flat statement like yours and expect it to stand for all situations.  Certainly, presuming you know and would have a good grip on the firearm, drawing and using a refused 7" weapon would more likely be easier than drawing and using a refused 24" weapon.  If the guy is unarmed, sure, probably need to use the baton; if he's got a knife, pretty sure the cop is going to use the firearm.

N.B. - "Refused" means that the side of the body that the weapon is on is angled away from the opponent.  "Presented' is the opposite term.

[RHat]

If he's got a knife, pretty sure the cop needs to have already shot him.  Though we probably shouldn't get to arguing the 21-foot rule, because that discussion is something of a quagmire.

[Aryeonos]

This is more or less the thread for it...
But slightly back to the point, if both characters are in mutual walking distance when combat starts there's plenty of room for maneuvering. Even if both characters are professional what'cha'callits there's room for one to make a clinch or a disarm, and likewise room for the shooter to both parry and fire if needed.
The basic melee and shooting rules do apply to this situation, with the -3 +2 for shooting, and then you parry or block with a melee weapon skill (Probably clubs or unarmed) as normal. The attacker can attack as normal, or make a disarming strike. I'd treat defense for the melee opponent as if he were defending against a melee strike if he chose over just dodging, At those ranges. The shooter can still push the other guy back and gain some distance, and should at those ranges.

[JoeNapalm]

So, arm's reach. There absolutely is such a thing.

A standard CQB drill is to strike/fend with your weak side while drawing and firing from Position 2 (tucked against your side with the weapon canted so the slide can cycle). You're not presenting the weapon, because at that range you are not aiming.

Many law enforcement agencies train to fight at that range, because that's the range they fight at most often.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

Deploying a firearm is far from their best option at that range.  Hence why most police forces are also equipped with blunt weapons.

Police are issued blunt weapons to provide them with a less than lethal option. If a LEO reaches for a baton, it is because you aren't enough of a threat to simply shoot.

The gun is already in the fight, whether they draw it or not. They have to control it or risk losing it, either way.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[JoeNapalm]

If he's got a knife, pretty sure the cop needs to have already shot him.  Though we probably shouldn't get to arguing the 21-foot rule, because that discussion is something of a quagmire.

Not arguing the 21-Foot Rule. If you just stand there, they can close the distance. That is all the 21-Foot Rule says. No quagmire.

What I am saying is that, if you know what you're doing, you can still defend yourself, and with a gun. The statement that there is "no such thing" as CQB tactics is wildly incorrect. Almost ALL shootings occur within 21 feet.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Aryeonos]

So, arm's reach. There absolutely is such a thing.

A standard CQB drill is to strike/fend with your weak side while drawing and firing from Position 2 (tucked against your side with the weapon canted so the slide can cycle). You're not presenting the weapon, because at that range you are not aiming.

Many law enforcement agencies train to fight at that range, because that's the range they fight at most often.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

Deploying a firearm is far from their best option at that range.  Hence why most police forces are also equipped with blunt weapons.

Police are issued blunt weapons to provide them with a less than lethal option. If a LEO reaches for a baton, it is because you aren't enough of a threat to simply shoot.

The gun is already in the fight, whether they draw it or not. They have to control it or risk losing it, either way.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Well, they also issue tasers to officers now too, and the holsters that either are in (or the combination gun in some cases) isn't exactly the easiest thing to grab out of unless you're the one with it on your hip.

But yeah, high threat gets the gun, low threat gets the stick. (Actually a tonfa)

Edit: Just couldn't wait for someone to post...also, why are you up so early?