[Reaver]

Yeah. It's hard to imagine not putting a cyberpenis implant that shoots acid on an assassin, really.

Doctor: "do you have a burning sensation when you urinate?"

Unahim: "kinda... And the urinal starts smoking and melting too!"

Doctor: "...... Son, you have a condition..."

[Lysanderz]

Play Style: Minimalistic Optimist. See what I did there?

My group tends to agree on a few things

1) Story before Dice
2) Logic before Rules
3) If you're rolling more than 15 on anything, you're probably doing it wrong. Interesting story or no, it totally upsets the balance of our table.
4) If you're gm'ing: SET YOUR RUN. You can fly by the seat of your pants all you want, but just because a character has a habit of kicking in doors wherever they go does not mean you should put a bomb behind a door to "Teach them a lesson".
5) Play the character. A merc usually won't work for free and a shaman will usually bicker with a Hermetic when discussing magical theories.

[Unahim]

Yeah. It's hard to imagine not putting a cyberpenis implant that shoots acid on an assassin, really.

Doctor: "do you have a burning sensation when you urinate?"

Unahim: "kinda... And the urinal starts smoking and melting too!"

Doctor: "...... Son, you have a condition..."

Indeed, a serious case of The Awesomes.

[JustADude]

Play Style: Minimalistic Optimist. See what I did there?

My group tends to agree on a few things

1) Story before Dice
2) Logic before Rules
3) If you're rolling more than 15 on anything, you're probably doing it wrong. Interesting story or no, it totally upsets the balance of our table.
4) If you're gm'ing: SET YOUR RUN. You can fly by the seat of your pants all you want, but just because a character has a habit of kicking in doors wherever they go does not mean you should put a bomb behind a door to "Teach them a lesson".
5) Play the character. A merc usually won't work for free and a shaman will usually bicker with a Hermetic when discussing magical theories.

Gotta disagree on point #3 there Lysanderz, at least as far as "doing it wrong" goes... obviously I can't speak as to your table's power balance.

As I mentioned, I believe that a lot of "optimal" choices are in-character knowledge, and common knowledge at that. A Street Samurai who doesn't quickly end up with Agility 9,
 (7 for a Troll), Primary Weapon Skill 7 (6 + Reflex Recorder), and a SmartLinked weapon isn't keeping up with the industry standard.

[Unahim]

I kinda agree with JustADude there. It makes sense for your character to invest everything into being cutting-edge. However, as long as all your players are close to each other, it's fine.

[Black]

Concur Unahim,  I think table balance is more important than # of dice actually being rolled.  I think that's actually what Lys was saying.  For his table more than 15 dice is too much.  For some tables its in the twenties, for other more than 12.

I had a player with a character that regularly rolled high teens and even twenty plus dice.  Real combat monster.  It actually made the whole game unbalanced for awhile, as other players became bit players in combat scenes.  They averaged the low teens for their specialities, even the combat characters.  A tables got to have some balance, or it can get challenging...

[Unahim]

Well, the first time we played, we had no clue how to build characters. At all. We had 1 IP except for one guy, and rolled like 10-12 dice at most. When that campaign came to an untimely end because of several character deaths (self-inflicted, heh), we moved back to D&D for a season. However, we used that entire season to design and tweak our next characters. Because of that, in our current campaign we all have 3 IP, and throw 15(+) dice for our specialisations.

[JustADude]

I kinda agree with JustADude there. It makes sense for your character to invest everything into being cutting-edge. However, as long as all your players are close to each other, it's fine.

Concur Unahim,  I think table balance is more important than # of dice actually being rolled.  I think that's actually what Lys was saying.  For his table more than 15 dice is too much.  For some tables its in the twenties, for other more than 12.

I had a player with a character that regularly rolled high teens and even twenty plus dice.  Real combat monster.  It actually made the whole game unbalanced for awhile, as other players became bit players in combat scenes.  They averaged the low teens for their specialities, even the combat characters.  A tables got to have some balance, or it can get challenging...

Yeah, pretty much. Each table is as each table does, to mangle a quote.

The balance point I strive for at my table is based around yet another phrase: "reasonable and customary."

Essentially, I try to figure out what things "any <INSERT ARCHETYPE> worth their salt" would be doing to be better at their jobs, compared to what would be considered "above and beyond." Those who go above and beyond get singled out as epic badasses, for both good and ill, while those that fall below the industry standard get relegated to the bush leagues.

That's not to say a bush-league game isn't fun, not at all... and standard 400 BP 'runners tend to start there anyway... but they won't be getting promoted to the majors until they're ready for it, for the simple reason that Mr. Johnson isn't risking the big paydays on people he's not sure can handle the load. Lots of Street Cred at a lower level of dice just means they get a rep as "competent small-timers."

Those that go above and beyond... well, they get a reputation, which goes beyond the Street Cred. That, of course, has its perks... more offers, better terms on the offers since they're a hot commodity, etc... and its drawbacks... witness Dev/Grrl and Kane's little showdown, for one example.

Those that just tread the line... well, they're just... average. They get jobs big enough to get some good, solid payouts, and they're more likely to stay under the radar than the "rock-star" 'runners, but they'll never really get to be Street Legends unless they step their game up.

[Lysanderz]

Counterpoint for JustADude

"Agent" from Street Legends= Standard Charisma Roll of 11-12 dice
Caymen from Street Legends= Standard Heavy Weapons roll 14 dice
Elijah from Street Legends= 14 dice standard summoning

These are LEGENDARY runners who are basically treated as some of the best in the biz. At our table that is what we consider to be top of the line. Scraping and struggling and grabbing every tiny piece of absolutely perfectly spent karma or build point to make characters with 20+ dice pools simply doesn't interest us. We like our legends legendary and being able to not only surpass them but do so in a way so vast they could only hope to catch up....

It simply puts a foul taste in our mouths.

Of course that is our preference, though it is a preference that keeps me from running with groups who say "11 dice? So that's your weakest skill, right?".

But preferences are just preferences. Do what you like with your games and I'll do what I like with mine.

[WellsIDidIt]

I see people bring up statement like "a lot of "optimal" choices are in-character knowledge, and common knowledge at that" a lot, and they really tend to ignore the very simple truth of reality. The "optimal" choices are not going to be as cut and dry in-character as they are mechanically to us players building the characters.

Take at look at the world today. Person X goes to buy a car. What car do they choose? How many people actually sit down and look at the size of the car, safety rating, average yearly maintenance costs, ect. and choose the car? Some. Far less than most. Just as many pick the one that makes them think "Ooooh Shiny" the most. More pick one similar to their last car/their parent's car due to strong emotional ties or simple brand loyalty (it's always worked good before, it'll work good for me too). Brand loyalty is actually a huge factor. It's why so many car companies buy out other companies and continue to use the old name too. Take a look at Ford for instance. They own Mercury as well. There Mercury cars are just Ford cars with a different emblem and model name slapped on. After that, we go on to features that can be added on, how the car will make you feel, how people will look at you with the car. Most often the only real factors people look at in such a purchase is "can I afford it" and that's actually even rarer than many would imagine.

So we hop to the Shadowrun universe. Let's take a piece of ware, let's say it's Reflex Recorder (Automatics). Now the corps say it helps  a ton and they've even got endorsements from Military Personnel, Knight Errant Officers, hell even ex-urban brawl super star Greggy Mack is hyping it up. Down at the range though, you're not seeing that huge of a difference between those with it and those without it. 1/3 of a hit is not that much, and how many people with it are at maximum potential (thus being pushed over the normally capable edge by it)? A guy with a skill of 3 that tosses it in is just as good as a guy that has a veteran skill. Do people think there is a limit to what it will help? Is it not just as likely an elite trained or legendary trained guy will think "Joe has it and shoots worse than me, so why would I need it?" Toss some Muscle Toner in there, a Smartlink, a TacNet system, etc. and sure, some people will believe it's all worth it. Some people will believe that factor X, Y, or Z is responsible for all of it. Others will think only one or two factors are responsible for it. Why? Because some people just don't want to believe. Some people hang on to desperate beliefs. Others are just grouchy.

So, yes, the "optimal" choices are going to be known in-character, but there is likely just as much debate over what is best as there is today over how useful the 5.7 round is (what the P-90 and Five-Seven use) or whether the 9mm is better than the .45. There is no reason to think humanity has decided to peacefully agree on one opinion in 2070 on what is the best thing to have.

So sure, a character or two may agree that having every single little piece of equipment that can cram in is worth it, but to insist that all of them have to agree in-character through common knowledge that each piece is both beneficial and worthwhile just makes for some very simplistic characters. Either due to player knowledge just oozing down the edges or because they're dim-witted enough to believe every single add they see.

For a better example, there is a reason that equipment changes so much from precinct to precinct and even officer to officer in some cases. I've ridden with officers that carry a .45, officer's that carry a 9mm, officers that still rely on the old .38 special, and officers that swear by their Five-Seven. Each has it's own limitations and it's own benefits. Brands of Ballistic Vests change from location to location as well. Sometimes it's for environmental reasons (breathing in Florida vs. Insulation up north), but just as often it's because the people making purchases didn't have the same views at each precinct. Real life isn't mechanically defined to us like the SR world is to us. The SR world isn't mechanically defined to the characters like it is to the players. Sure, we can try to rationalize and usually find the "best of all worlds" in our RL purchases but we never know if it really was or not. That's not even getting into when the "better" product goes under do to marketing, PR, or other screwups. Industry standards are rarely the ceiling. They are usually much more cost efficient than that.

EDIT: For clarification the above is my play style. Not just a personal attack on anyone. More clarification in next post.

[JustADude]

Wells, dude, go back and look at the first post.

You just broke one of the cardinal rules for the thread: You started talking about other people's choices without laying your own style out on the examination table for everyone else to critique.

[Lysanderz]

I believe that by his statements above it is pretty obvious that his opinion leans away from "Optimizing".

Regardless, the man has a point and in no way insults your play style. Only questions the logic you use to fluff IC reasoning for wanting X, Y, Z.

[JustADude]

And now you two are bickering, violating Rule #4.

Everyone take a chill pill.



EDIT: It seems people are taking the high road and deleting the inflammatory comments. Glad to see everyone being reasonable.

EDIT 2: Looks like I spoke too soon *sigh*

[WellsIDidIt]

Wells, dude, go back and look at the first post.

You just broke one of the cardinal rules for the thread: You started talking about other people's choices without laying your own style out on the examination table for everyone else to critique.

My style is right there, in the same post. Do I need to simplify it for you? Fine. The SR world isn't mechanical in nature, don't think of everyone/everything only mechanically. Similarly, optimum is matter of opinion based on "what" you're trying to be optimal about. Roleplaying is about playing a character, lottery is about playing the numbers.

For example, for weapons I most often see things such as most DV/AP achievable as the "optimal" choice, and that ignores other factors. Where do you attacks go when you miss. Sure, in melee it might not be as bad, cleaved up siding, drain pipes, floor boards, etc. What about Ranged attacks though? Bullets go somewhere. Fact of life. That Light Pistol with flechette rounds, it's going to head into the nearest interior wall and end it's journey quickly (6P vs. 7 modified armor). That Heavy Pistol with APDS or AP Flechettes? It's going to head through 4 interior walls or so unless something stops it along the way like an innocent bystander.

I wouldn't call my stance against optimization, I believe in optimizing what is important to your character, what they would have optimized on. Some people may consider buying a High Lifestyle at CC unoptimized but if your character is the sole family supporter and is running to give his family a good life, it makes since and is the optimal choice for the character. It's his priority. Character priority should always take priority over player priority.

EDIT: Wow, it's almost like I could change what I wrote here and try to make others look bad for not agreeing with me. Hmm...na that couldn't be possible.

[Lysanderz]

Character priority should always take priority over player priority.

You sir are my Hero.