[Glyph]

Looking at the archetypes (I have the SR4 book, so the anniversary book might be slightly different), the only characters with any hacking skills are the hacker and the technomancer.  The only characters with infiltration are the covert ops specialist, street samurai, and street shaman.

So don't think that lacking two niche skills instantly consigns the PCs into a narrow role as mere thugs.  There are lots of jobs other than breaking into the facility to steal the maguffin.  They can be bodyguards, urban mercs who get hired to teach the local gang a lesson, bounty hunters, paracritter hunters, highway bandits, smugglers, investigators, guerilla fighters, you name it. 

Even muscle work can have a variety, considering how many people need a bit of leverage or insurance when they are doing dangerous jobs or consorting with dangerous company.  They can be babysitting a spoiled sim star, helping a corporate shark get a leg up on his competition, be overwatch at a meet between two underworld factions, be chasing a delinquent high roller who made of with some of the Don's cred, all kinds of things.

[JustADude]

...smugglers... ...guerilla fighters...

Actually, you'd need some half-decent stealth skills to avoid border patrols and other customs-type security, as well as to properly recon the enemy and set up ambushes. Probably also Disguise or Sleight-Of-Hand to hide smuggling compartments and booby-traps.

Otherwise, though, pretty much spot on.

[raggedhalo]

(Thread necro, sorry!)

I give PCs at my table some free Skills, including Computer 2 and Data Search 2, to give them a way into doing minor tech stuff if they want it without charging them any points.  That might work for your group too.

[1Red13]

Have occasions where the pcs need to use the skills you know they have in situations that aren't absolutely critical.  Therefore if by defaulting they don't succeed they suffer only minor consequences and it should clue into them that they need to spend early karma on some glaring holes in their characters

[All4BigGuns]

Have occasions where the pcs need to use the skills you know they have in situations that aren't absolutely critical.  Therefore if by defaulting they don't succeed they suffer only minor consequences and it should clue into them that they need to spend early karma on some glaring holes in their characters

And what if their character idea doesn't include all of those skills YOU consider "glaring holes" to not be there? This is tantamount to railroading, IMO.

[1Red13]

Railroading is them having to use fairly common skills in the game of shadowrun?  If that was the case as a player I would never have to take combat skills and I could sit triumphantly back and tell the dm he could never attack me as I didn't build any combat skills into my character.

Besides shadowrun characters aren't a finished work at the time of creation.  Epic shadowrunners will have picked up and learned skills along the way and evolved into the character they have begun.

[All4BigGuns]

Railroading is them having to use fairly common skills in the game of shadowrun?  If that was the case as a player I would never have to take combat skills and I could sit triumphantly back and tell the dm he could never attack me as I didn't build any combat skills into my character.

Besides shadowrun characters aren't a finished work at the time of creation.  Epic shadowrunners will have picked up and learned skills along the way and evolved into the character they have begun.

It can be inferred by the phrasing of your first post that the intent is to attempt to force the players to take certain skills. This by definition is railroading, as it is an endeavor to impose one's own idea of "proper character creation/growth/development" upon one's players.

[JustADude]

Railroading is them having to use fairly common skills in the game of shadowrun?  If that was the case as a player I would never have to take combat skills and I could sit triumphantly back and tell the dm he could never attack me as I didn't build any combat skills into my character.

Besides shadowrun characters aren't a finished work at the time of creation.  Epic shadowrunners will have picked up and learned skills along the way and evolved into the character they have begun.

Hey, nice straw-man there. Must have put a lot of work into it.

Go read the Skill Ratings Table in SR4A, on p199. Rating 0 is what an average person on the street with no special knowledge beyond "what everyone knows" has. You don't get Rating 1 until you actually put effort into developing a skill... such as someone taking a seminar on how to Make Friends and Influence People, or reading Commlinks For Dummies.

So, yes, forcing someone to take above Rank 0, which indicates that they've spent time and energy focusing on developing it above Joe Average level, is railroading.

[Crunch]

Its no more railroading than balancing a game expecting 22 dice firearms pools. Its just a game style issue. This is another case where I don't honestly see  your objection JAD. Why do you have such a big problem with anyone who wants to play the game differently than you do?

[All4BigGuns]

Its no more railroading than balancing a game expecting 22 dice firearms pools. Its just a game style issue. This is another case where I don't honestly see  your objection JAD. Why do you have such a big problem with anyone who wants to play the game differently than you do?

If I see something that looks like railroading to me, then I'm going to point it out in hopes that a person will learn.

[Crunch]

Its no more railroading than balancing a game expecting 22 dice firearms pools. Its just a game style issue. This is another case where I don't honestly see  your objection JAD. Why do you have such a big problem with anyone who wants to play the game differently than you do?

If I see something that looks like railroading to me, then I'm going to point it out in hopes that a person will learn.

How is a different playstyle than yours railroading?

I get it. You like big dicepools and min/maxed characters and hyper action. That's fine. Why do you respond to a thread where the OP is asking "how do I broaden the experience in my game" with "don't because if you don't play like me you're wrong."

[Reaver]

Have occasions where the pcs need to use the skills you know they have in situations that aren't absolutely critical.  Therefore if by defaulting they don't succeed they suffer only minor consequences and it should clue into them that they need to spend early karma on some glaring holes in their characters

No. In some cases this makes a little sense....

I recently had a couple of new players to SR join my table. Cause I was busy, I broke my own cardinal rule and didn't help them build their characters. (I did give them a quick once over before the game began... But I missed something...)

The first scene that a brought them in to the game, the group asked them to shadow a mark on his pickup route....
Now I determined that since the pickup route that in the downtown core, during the day there would be alot of people going about their lives.... So they wouldn't need to make a 'shadowing' roll. They would however need to make periodic perception (2) tests to keep him in sight...
....
Neither had perception, thus had to default! So they ended up with 3 dice each..... Needless to say they lost the mark pretty quickly.

Was this a game ending situation? No. The party pushed back their time table, assigned 2 other players to do the shadowing, and the newbies found out how important 'perception' skill can be, thus giving them an idea of what should be raised with karma in the future.

[All4BigGuns]

Its no more railroading than balancing a game expecting 22 dice firearms pools. Its just a game style issue. This is another case where I don't honestly see  your objection JAD. Why do you have such a big problem with anyone who wants to play the game differently than you do?

If I see something that looks like railroading to me, then I'm going to point it out in hopes that a person will learn.

How is a different playstyle than yours railroading?

I get it. You like big dicepools and min/maxed characters and hyper action. That's fine. Why do you respond to a thread where the OP is asking "how do I broaden the experience in my game" with "don't because if you don't play like me you're wrong."

This is what happens when you jump in to a portion of a conversation without fully reading. The railroading comes from the poster that basically said to put the PCs into a whole lot of situations their skills don't cover to force them into buying those skills. THAT is railroading, plain and simple. Learn to read more than the last post or two before sticking your nose in and insulting people over something you obviously have no idea about.

Have occasions where the pcs need to use the skills you know they have in situations that aren't absolutely critical.  Therefore if by defaulting they don't succeed they suffer only minor consequences and it should clue into them that they need to spend early karma on some glaring holes in their characters

No. In some cases this makes a little sense....

I recently had a couple of new players to SR join my table. Cause I was busy, I broke my own cardinal rule and didn't help them build their characters. (I did give them a quick once over before the game began... But I missed something...)

The first scene that a brought them in to the game, the group asked them to shadow a mark on his pickup route....
Now I determined that since the pickup route that in the downtown core, during the day there would be alot of people going about their lives.... So they wouldn't need to make a 'shadowing' roll. They would however need to make periodic perception (2) tests to keep him in sight...
....
Neither had perception, thus had to default! So they ended up with 3 dice each..... Needless to say they lost the mark pretty quickly.

Was this a game ending situation? No. The party pushed back their time table, assigned 2 other players to do the shadowing, and the newbies found out how important 'perception' skill can be, thus giving them an idea of what should be raised with karma in the future.

This is different, as it was a natural development and not some contrived circumstance like 1Red13 was suggesting to do. (Not to mention that it dealt with a skill that is more general in nature.) The problem comes when the GM arbitrarily starts trying to make the Street Sam hack or pull Face work just to "teach them a lesson for not taking the skills".

[Crunch]

This is what happens when you jump in to a portion of a conversation without fully reading. The railroading comes from the poster that basically said to put the PCs into a whole lot of situations their skills don't cover to force them into buying those skills. THAT is railroading, plain and simple. Learn to read more than the last post or two before sticking your nose in and insulting people over something you obviously have no idea about.

One, at no point have I insulted you in this thread.

Two, how is putting players in low stakes situations where non combat skills would be useful any more railroading than putting them in a situation where they have to have 20+ dice in their combat skills to succeed? This is pure and simple an example of what I was talking about in the other thread. GM comes in with a question about his game and by post 3 the OP is being told that his play style is wrong. By post 5 the only poster actually trying to answer the OPs question is being insulted by Guns.

And then you jump in to accuse the poster who suggested adding some low stakes content that would encourage the players to expand their skill set of railroading.

Get over it. Some people like to play the game differently than you and Guns do. Its not absolutely necessary that the two of you bully them into silence whenever they ask for help.

I recommend that you go back and read the thread.

[All4BigGuns]

This is what happens when you jump in to a portion of a conversation without fully reading. The railroading comes from the poster that basically said to put the PCs into a whole lot of situations their skills don't cover to force them into buying those skills. THAT is railroading, plain and simple. Learn to read more than the last post or two before sticking your nose in and insulting people over something you obviously have no idea about.

One, at no point have I insulted you in this thread.

Two, how is putting players in low stakes situations where non combat skills would be useful any more railroading than putting them in a situation where they have to have 20+ dice in their combat skills to succeed? This is pure and simple an example of what I was talking about in the other thread. GM comes in with a question about his game and by post 3 the OP is being told that his play style is wrong. By post 5 the only poster actually trying to answer the OPs question is being insulted by Guns.

And then you jump in to accuse the poster who suggested adding some low stakes content that would encourage the players to expand their skill set of railroading.

Get over it. Some people like to play the game differently than you and Guns do. Its not absolutely necessary that the two of you bully them into silence whenever they ask for help.

I recommend that you go back and read the thread.

You insulted people by making a claim that we only care about dice pool. This is untrue, and since you don't know either of us, I'd suggest you step down from the vitriol spewing.

The supposed suggestion is in fact railroading because of the intent implied by his own words of claiming "glaring holes". This states that the intent would be to force players into taking skills that they may not have ever intended on taking. How is this NOT railroading?