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Non-lethal takedown

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CanRay

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« Reply #30 on: <08-13-12/2150:27> »
He didn't go everywhere like that, but when he was kitted out like that, it usually meant that someone was in for a world of hurt.
Probably him if the cops saw him on the street like that!
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Mirikon

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« Reply #31 on: <08-13-12/2155:50> »
He didn't go everywhere like that, but when he was kitted out like that, it usually meant that someone was in for a world of hurt.
Probably him if the cops saw him on the street like that!
You'd be surprised what you can get away with when you combine SINner, Erased, a lined coat, high CHA, good Con, empathy software, and plenty of permits. One time he forgot to put his PAN in hidden mode before creating a distraction to get the Star off the team's trail. The cops were staking out the residence attached to his fake SIN when he got home. So he went peaceably along to the station, and convinced the detective in charge that he was a victim of identity theft. To quote Micheal Weston, it is easier to dodge questions than bullets.
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CanRay

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« Reply #32 on: <08-13-12/2158:10> »
Playing it Bogart, that's the way to do things!  ;D
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AndyNakamura

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« Reply #33 on: <08-14-12/0046:48> »
He didn't go everywhere like that, but when he was kitted out like that, it usually meant that someone was in for a world of hurt.
Probably him if the cops saw him on the street like that!
You'd be surprised what you can get away with when you combine SINner, Erased, a lined coat, high CHA, good Con, empathy software, and plenty of permits. One time he forgot to put his PAN in hidden mode before creating a distraction to get the Star off the team's trail. The cops were staking out the residence attached to his fake SIN when he got home. So he went peaceably along to the station, and convinced the detective in charge that he was a victim of identity theft. To quote Micheal Weston, it is easier to dodge questions than bullets.

Hey, that's another method of non-lethal approach. Social engineering, bluffing, fast-talking, con jobs, good old-fashion blackmail, controlled information leaks, playing three (or is it four?) AAA corps against each other... Anything to make others do your work for you / leave you alone and focus on more lucrative prospects. Even if I'd rather not have to do that, I think I'm starting to enjoy it.

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Reaver

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« Reply #34 on: <08-16-12/2239:50> »
Don't take this personal if I'm wrong, but it looks like in whatever runner bar you happen to end up in, you can't spit without hitting a violent psychopath armed to the teeth with highly lethal weapons. Yeah, I get it. The world is a big sack of crap, neither the corps nor the govs give the proverbial flying one about you, and the only way you can survive is if you pack enough heat to turn a Kamikaze'd rhino into red mist. But sometimes I look at people I work with, and I can't help but think that a prerequisite to becoming a runner is having one's empathy surgically removed.

Anyways. *gets off high horse*

Morality aside, there are obvious advantages to the non-lethal approach. One, you're not wanted for murder, only assault. Two, the friends, family, and employers of that security guard you knocked out are less likely to come gunning for you (or send your colleagues to do the job for them) than those of the one you turned into wallpaper. Three, non-lethal agents come in a variety of nifty, fast-acting, SILENT packages, which your average opposition tends not to protect themselves against.

Thoughts, preferences, tactics?

Well, this is where it falls on the GM to set the tone, not just for the current game, but for each neighborhood. You visit a Runner watering hole in the barrens, expect to need at least a heavy pistol, if not not a machine pistol to set the tone of "don't frag with me" to the other patrons. (and they may still frag with you if you act like an ass)

However, in the glittzy downtown core of Seattle where the well to do go to blow off steam, even a light pistol could prevent your entrance to a club. These people pay well for their protection (to KE) and expect to be protected from gun toting drunken maniacs (IE: everyone but them). And they expect the clubs to help keep them safe, which means preventing armed individuals from going in. ("yes sir, I see your pistol permit on your SIN, but we have a strict no weapons policy. Leave the gun in your car, or you're not getting in")

As for the lethality of runners, again this is up to the GM to 'enforce'. If the players leave a mass of butchered bodies behind them after a run, the media attention should be through the roof! ("Is there a gang war brewing in your neighborhood!? Over twenty men, women and children where violently butchered on the streets of Seattle today! Find out where on channel 7, news at 11") Even assaults with high counts will be investigated (but MUCH less man hours).

Keep in mind too that Corps are always concerned with the bottom line and productivity. A bunch of beat up security personelle is alot cheaper then alot of dead security personelle, not to mention easier to hide from the corporate wage slave masses. (after all a bunch of scared wage slaves are not as productive as happy wage slaves). Then there is "Corp Pride/honor/responsibility" to consider. 20 battered security guards might net you full co-operation of the corp with KE/LS and a dozen hours or so of the corp's elite sniffers looking for you. 20 DEAD guards would probably net you 200-300 man hours of sniffers hunting you PLUS a Black Ops strike. They have to send the message that killing their citizens is NOT tolerated!

Then their is the Johnson AND Fixer to consider. Yes, some Johnsons want or even expect a high body count (depending on the run) but usually they want things as quiet as possible to avoid notice themselves. After all the SOLE reason to use a SR team is deniability, that way the sponsor Corp isn't liable for the damages/thieft. And let's face it, if a Corp wants a bloodbath that could be tracked back to them, they'd just use their own special forces teams (FireWatch, Red Samurai, etc). The Fixer who set up the team has his own rep to consider as well. If he gets known for giving jobs to blood soaked maniacs, he's going to lose the custom of everyone who wants things done 'low-key', not to mention the heat he's going to attract from authorities (Corps, gov't, police of all branches). A fixer who has 'the man' following him everywhere he goes can't really do his job as a fixer can he?

In short, less-than-lethal should be a Runners credo 99% of the time. With that lethal option for only when it truly; A) doesn't matter (deep in a Z zone) or B) no other way to escape. If the lethal option is a Runners first (or only) choice in every situation, expect to have a short, bloody, pain filled career!


Unless, of course the lethal game is the one your GM wants to run! Then break out the full autos and goto town!
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Kontact

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« Reply #35 on: <08-18-12/0153:06> »
For my money, it's better to avoid a conflict than to try and keep a conflict "civil" by using non-lethal force.  To that end, R6 adhesive is a damn good way to limit the movement of people through a building during a snatch-and-grab.  Guards can't engage you if the door won't open, so a little prep can save a lot of potential conflict.  It's way better than just shooting up the place.

Well, this is where it falls on the GM to set the tone, not just for the current game, but for each neighborhood.

Setting is basically half the GMs job, for sure.  A lot of pnp is just making sure everyone is on the same page as to what kind of action and such is acceptable.

farothel

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« Reply #36 on: <08-18-12/0414:17> »
A lot of this also depends on where you're running.  For instance, in Lagos nobody gives a damn on what you're carrying on the street (except maybe Lagos Island) and everybody shoots to kill.  Of course, that's also the place where corps use cruise missiles to get one hacker.

We used to drive around in Lagos in an up-armoured humvee with a gatling gun on the top (in a retractable turret, so we could go on Lagos island if needed), and we needed it from time to time.
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Exodus

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« Reply #37 on: <08-24-12/1624:04> »
I GM and I play, in both cases I prefer teammates to carry nothing bigger than a heavy pistol/taser or a knife while out and about and maybe an AR or sniper for the run itself. Anything bigger and you've done something wrong.

Personally I think people on the streets are more afraid of the guy who knows people, knows where the bodies are buried, and speaks softly versus the cybered up killing machine with the panther assault cannon.

It's one thing to be able to kill a guy, it's another to be able to wipe out that guys entire gang with the right words in the right place.

On topic, I ban SnS, so my players have started to lean more toward gel rounds, especially since they got burned buying knockout chems.
« Last Edit: <08-24-12/1626:52> by Exodus »
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valavaern

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« Reply #38 on: <08-25-12/0036:33> »
I GM and I play, in both cases I prefer teammates to carry nothing bigger than a heavy pistol/taser or a knife while out and about and maybe an AR or sniper for the run itself. Anything bigger and you've done something wrong.

Personally I think people on the streets are more afraid of the guy who knows people, knows where the bodies are buried, and speaks softly versus the cybered up killing machine with the panther assault cannon.

It's one thing to be able to kill a guy, it's another to be able to wipe out that guys entire gang with the right words in the right place.

On topic, I ban SnS, so my players have started to lean more toward gel rounds, especially since they got burned buying knockout chems.
Should still allow SnS for shotguns since they, well.. actually exist.  :3
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Kylen

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« Reply #39 on: <08-25-12/0446:49> »
Card (My Smuggler Adept who dabbles in social engineering) is a Pacifist (5 point) martial artist.  His philosophy is "I shall not strike the first blow, but I shall strike the last", meaning he will ALWAYS try to sneak in/bluff his way past the guards first. Makes for a nice way to get a guy in to disable security booths just before the run. Helps that he has a high unarmed damage code, and grabbed that wonderful Elemental Strike (Electric). Because 6s vs half armor + bod is painful against most anything that's not meant to be soaking Panther rounds. I'm currently pondering dumping a bunch of points into SnS based guns for him, or gel rounds/other stun based rounds, but I'm more worried that will end up carrying him into the typical 'gunbunny' direction, which isn't where I want him.

TL;DR: Adepts who want to go non-leathal should grab Elemental Strike (Electric) and kick their damage code up as high as they can.
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CanRay

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« Reply #40 on: <08-25-12/0834:26> »
Best Non-Lethal way to take out the competition:  Drinking Contest.
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valavaern

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« Reply #41 on: <08-25-12/1623:21> »
Card (My Smuggler Adept who dabbles in social engineering) is a Pacifist (5 point) martial artist.  His philosophy is "I shall not strike the first blow, but I shall strike the last", meaning he will ALWAYS try to sneak in/bluff his way past the guards first. Makes for a nice way to get a guy in to disable security booths just before the run. Helps that he has a high unarmed damage code, and grabbed that wonderful Elemental Strike (Electric). Because 6s vs half armor + bod is painful against most anything that's not meant to be soaking Panther rounds. I'm currently pondering dumping a bunch of points into SnS based guns for him, or gel rounds/other stun based rounds, but I'm more worried that will end up carrying him into the typical 'gunbunny' direction, which isn't where I want him.

TL;DR: Adepts who want to go non-leathal should grab Elemental Strike (Electric) and kick their damage code up as high as they can.
seeing how elemental strike specifically says is modifies Killing Hands, there's a big debate over whether or not that would actually be physical damage you're dealing.

The power you really want is Nerve Strike, and then crank up your unarmed skill any way you can.  :3
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Kylen

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« Reply #42 on: <08-25-12/1755:07> »
Card (My Smuggler Adept who dabbles in social engineering) is a Pacifist (5 point) martial artist.  His philosophy is "I shall not strike the first blow, but I shall strike the last", meaning he will ALWAYS try to sneak in/bluff his way past the guards first. Makes for a nice way to get a guy in to disable security booths just before the run. Helps that he has a high unarmed damage code, and grabbed that wonderful Elemental Strike (Electric). Because 6s vs half armor + bod is painful against most anything that's not meant to be soaking Panther rounds. I'm currently pondering dumping a bunch of points into SnS based guns for him, or gel rounds/other stun based rounds, but I'm more worried that will end up carrying him into the typical 'gunbunny' direction, which isn't where I want him.

TL;DR: Adepts who want to go non-leathal should grab Elemental Strike (Electric) and kick their damage code up as high as they can.
seeing how elemental strike specifically says is modifies Killing Hands, there's a big debate over whether or not that would actually be physical damage you're dealing.

The power you really want is Nerve Strike, and then crank up your unarmed skill any way you can.  :3

And I'll argue back that it specifically states in the damage rules that Electricity does Stun. So I guess you could swing it either way as a GM, but until I can actually get into a game with him for longer then a day, my interpretation stays the same.
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Black

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« Reply #43 on: <08-25-12/2105:19> »
Best Non-Lethal way to take out the competition:  Drinking Contest.

Actually saw that in a game (well sort off).  Team was negotiating with some humanis thugs who had kiddnapped Mr J.  One of them offered some water and edged an Intoxiation spell on the water.  Gave the water to one of the goons and he went down like a rocket. 
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FuelDrop

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« Reply #44 on: <08-25-12/2202:23> »
Zapper static discharge missile. take out entire squads and their drone support in a single shot. it's also available at chargen :)
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