[Devil]

Heck yeah. I'll have to look into it.

I'm in the US, so it's probably a great deal harder to learn here.

[Usda Beph]

Yeah, I find the bokken thing kinda screwy myself, although I can rationalize it. I guess it's the difference between using it as a practice weapon (Blades) or as a lethal weapon (Clubs).

I think the distinction is the type damage a Bokken does. Though it is shaped like a blade and functions like a blade, it does not cut like a blade, hence the club classification.

[Devil]

Clearly, but that doesn't make it make sense.

[Bradd]

I dunno, it kinda makes sense. If you use sword technique with a bokken you're not going to get sword results. Although I dunno that you'd do any better treating it like a baton. Sure there are legends of Musashi killing people with them, but that's really not what they're for.

[Devil]

You use them as you would use a sword. That's what they are. Practice swords.

The effect might differ, since it is a blunt force weapon, but the means of application would be nearly the same.

I mean, you don't think people who practice Kendo would suck with real swords, do you?

This is all assuming that you don't use some weird fancy style like Iaido. Iaido uses a metal practice sword anyway, from what I've heard.

[Critias]

While in theory wooden practice weapons are wielded just like the weapon they're meant to represent -- whether we're talking bokken for Kendo, or rattan sticks for Kali/Escrima guys -- in practice I'm sure there are enough differences that they're at least as different as going from a machine pistol to an SMG, or from an assault rifle to a squad automatic (LMG).  In real life, lots of times these things are almost exactly alike, but they're different enough that, for game balance and combat skills in particular, a new skill is needed.

For instance, when you jab someone with a bokken, you're going to give them a bruise.  If you do the same little jab with live steel, suddenly maybe you've got to figure out out to get your sword back out because now it's stuck in someone's belly instead of just knocking the breath out of them.  Going through a Sinawali routine with a pair of rattan sticks in the Filipino Martial Arts, you're practicing for speed, footwork, balance, rhythm, and accuracy.  Do the same Heaven Six Sinawali with a pair of machete, though, and suddenly you've got to worry about blade facing (making sure you're swinging edge-forward), differences in weight/balance, and -- oh yeah -- if you were to actually perform the combo on someone's head, suddenly instead of thwacking your sticks against your buddy's in practice, you've got to tug your machete out of someone's skull.

[Devil]

I agree, however, it still doesn't sit right with me that your character could be a master with a bokken, yet be completely inept and inaccurate with a sword.

I feel like some skill should transfer between mediums. I have no idea how something like that would work though.

[Critias]

I agree, however, it still doesn't sit right with me that your character could be a master with a bokken, yet be completely inept and inaccurate with a sword.

I feel like some skill should transfer between mediums. I have no idea how something like that would work though.

Part of that is why some of us grouchy old timers miss the "skill web" from earlier editions.  Confusing as it was at a glance, it let you default from one skill to another, gathering penalties the further you got from the one you were copying. 

It'd be pretty easy to rework for SR4, if one were so inclined, especially with skill groups as a reasonable starting point. 

[voydangel]

Speaking of things i miss from older versions... I miss being able to get lucky and have 3 IPs with no augmentation, just from rolling super awesome on your init roll - because of the whole -10 init per pass thing. Made more sense to me that sometimes you just get lucky in combat, and sometimes, all the cyber in the world wont help...

[Bradd]

If a character were an expert at clubs but not blades, I wouldn't expect him to use a bokken like a sword. More like a staff or baton. If the player wanted to describe it as specifically being skill with the bokken as a practice weapon, but didn't want to buy any blades skill, I'd ask him to rethink that, because it doesn't make sense.

[FastJack]

It basically comes down to this: When practicing with Bokken swords, you're pretending that it's a sword, using attacks that would normally deal damage from the blade cutting and piercing. But it doesn't deal any damage (or it's minor damage) because Bokkens are made NOT to damage that way. If you want to hurt somebody with a Bokken, you have to use it more like a club to get crushing/bludgeoning damage that will hurt.

[Welshman]

It basically comes down to this: When practicing with Bokken swords, you're pretending that it's a sword, using attacks that would normally deal damage from the blade cutting and piercing. But it doesn't deal any damage (or it's minor damage) because Bokkens are made NOT to damage that way. If you want to hurt somebody with a Bokken, you have to use it more like a club to get crushing/bludgeoning damage that will hurt.

Hey 'Jack, you sure you're not getting Shanais or Rattan swords and Bokken confused? Bokken may not cut, but used like a sword it will break/shatter bones, it is a solid piece of hardwood. A Kendo expert using a Bokken would be considered an assault with a deadly weapon, given his training on how to use said hunk of wood.

It goes beyond hurt to deadly. Be more like a mace attack, but with the speed of a sword.

[Dakka]

It goes beyond hurt to deadly. Be more like a mace attack, but with the speed of a sword.

Its the "more like a mace attack" part that gets you into using the clubs skill. 

[FastJack]

You take any slim piece of wood and swing it like a sword and you're likely to break bones. But you're still not going to cut flesh. I'm not saying that it won't do damage, but it's a different type of damage.

If you go after someone trying to use a slashing attack with any type of wooden sword and they're going to wonder why you're trying to give them a friction burn.

[Welshman]

It goes beyond hurt to deadly. Be more like a mace attack, but with the speed of a sword.

Its the "more like a mace attack" part that gets you into using the clubs skill. 

Still disagree. The damage is like a mace, but you wield the weapon like a sword. I've used maces, shanai, rattan swords and bokken. Maces are weighted at the end and take a totally different set of muscles and skills to use. Shanai, rattan swords and bokken you use like swords (Shanai are more like a rapier or saber, the other two more like broadswords.

If you try and wield a bokken like a mace, it will be wildly ineffective. The weight, mass concentration and balance are completely different.

If you go after someone trying to use a slashing attack with any type of wooden sword and they're going to wonder why you're trying to give them a friction burn.

Not really. The main damage is in the initial hit. The slash just opens up the wound. I've seen skin broken from bokken attacks and you still use slashing motions.

One thing that is interesting, is most folks think a swords power comes from the forearm. Unless you are using fencing class weapons (foils and epees) then the power of your attack comes from the hips. Whether it has a slicing blade on it or just a blunt shaft, the power if the attack is from the same origin. This is even true with thrusting weapons. If you try and penetrate a thick hide of leather armor with just a biceps, you'll not get very far. You need to put the weight of your body behind the attack.

I'm not saying the damage won't be different, a cut is a cut and will bleed out on the ground. But a bokken strike is going to bleed as well, just all of it sub-dermal. The key point I'm trying to make is both use the same skill to do that damage. Both with do deadly damage and at that point the difference between a sliced ligament and a crushed one isn't really.

Best,
WM