[BreederofPuppets]

Two things you got wrong Breeder was you forgot to apply the AP of the blast to your damage soak... so the barrier has armor 12, -3AP for 9... then roll x2 armor for the soak.   Physical barrier spells are special... if they're breached at all the spell falls apart.

According to the S4A I have, page 167, yer suppose to ignore the AP of the weapon when attacking barriers to destroy them.  And I really don't see a grenade being able to selectively attack through a barrier.

Secondly, don't double the damage each time it bounces... it's the same damage each time the wave laps against the shore (barrier).  So it's 2x6 the first time, 2x6 the second, 2x6 the third if it still stands...    and an unlucky character takes 6+6+6==18S.  (probably unconscious barring drugs, pain editor or the like).

Hang on, let me write this out.  Blast travels from the grenade, and crosses the target the first time.  That DV 6S.  It bounces off the barrier, crosses the target a second time.  Now its 12S.  This time, when it hits barrier, it breaks through, leaving it at 12S. Now, the blast wave that started out going the other way  (away from the target, bouncing off the barrier, and back again) does the same thing, increasing the DV to 24S.  Do that for the other four sides (six total directions; forward, back, left right, up, down), and you get (6x12=) 72S. 

Hrm.  Okay, looking at it another way....
Wait, that would only matter if the blast bounced three or more times before breaking through.  But that didn't happen here (the barrier breaks instead of rebounding after its DV is increased to 12S).  So, there is that.

And wouldn't the wall effectively receive the same damage as the target, in the case of the stun grenade?  After all, the rebound effect has to hurt the walls too.

[Falconer]

Good catch... I was confusing the shooting through barriers bit which checks the AP normally for punching through.  The AP does not apply...  So it is 24 dice resist on a rating 12 barrier (really extreme case for a physical barrier spell.


As for the second... the point is that you're not attacking the barrier with intent to destroy it... it's simply in the way.  It'll either be destroyed or have a hole punched in it as appropriate.  If it's holed... the blast doesn't reflect anymore but passes through... (so you could get wierdness where it hurts people outside the room... when if a door fails early... where people in the room take 12S(ap-3) and people just outside the door take 6S(ap-3)

Each time a 'wave' of the blast reflects off it, you're simply working yourself up towards that structure rating to punch that hole/destroy barrier...  The *WAVE* does NOT get stronger each time it bounces, you're simply hitting the unfortunate occupants and the walls multiple times with that wave.

So to use your own example... flash bang goes off.. 6S.   It travels through the puds (once), hits wall... apply (6x2) dam to barriers structure once... it travels through puds again (twice), it hits the SAME magical barrier (not a different wall), it inflicts (6x2) AGAIN.  It bounces back and hits puds again (thrice)... and runs out of steam.

At this point, the puds have been hit for 6S + 6S + 6S == 18S(ap-3) in a SINGLE soak roll... the WALLS have been hit twice... each time soaking 12D in *two* seperate tests.


Again the wall doesn't have HP's... it's simply a structure rating reflecting how much damage you need to do to punch a 1m^2 hole in it at a minimum.  It's NOT going to resist damage afterwards... it took it as the confined blast damage was calculated in the first place


Flash bangs are kind of severe... the damage doesn't decrease with range.   If you were using a HE grenade, that -2D per meter would make things a lot harder.  If using a Frag grenade... that -1D per meter is even uglier (though as you point out the +5AP penalty wouldn't help the walls resist the damage!).

[jonathanc]

Don't Barriers ignore stun damage? AFB so I could be recalling incorrectly, but I'm quite sure they did. If they do, a F1 barrier would be enough to pull such a trick with stun grenades. I was mistaken.

Also, a F12 barrier? Your mage just stood and took 9P drain?

People always sound impressed by stuff like this. Am I the only one whose players immediately noticed how superior Edge was? Assume a Willpower of at least 5 on a mage, plus 5 in whatever their drain stat is, plus, say, 4 edge...that's 14 dice, rerolling on sixes. I'm terrible at statistics, but from personal experience I'd say 5 hits is reasonable. If it'll resolve the combat quickly, the mage will gladly take a few boxes of P. And if they have a bound spirit to take the drain for them, so much the better.

[All4BigGuns]

You also can't forget the distance between walls since grenade damage does degrade as it goes out. If there's no damage left when it reaches the wall, then there's no "bounce" to create the chunky salsa in the first place.

[ArkangelWinter]

You also can't forget the distance between walls since grenade damage does degrade as it goes out. If there's no damage left when it reaches the wall, then there's no "bounce" to create the chunky salsa in the first place.

Flashbang damage doesn't degrade, and that's the example they're using.

[Falconer]

Yeah flashbang is the closest thing in the rules to a weak FAE (fuel-air explosive).

It has a quick short explosion which spread a fine particulate like aluminum powder all through the air... then a secondary which lights it off again.  So in a way it's like a grain elevator explosion...   that's why it makes sense even if it's stun it's going to blow something apart to me and chunky salsa still applies... if it lacks the full 10m radius then you get more overpressure in the limited area it is in.

[ArkangelWinter]

I've had the misfortune of being near a flashbang detonation in a storage closet about 1m x 1.5m, and it's definitely capable of chunky salsa.

[Mirikon]

I've had the misfortune of being near a flashbang detonation in a storage closet about 1m x 1.5m, and it's definitely capable of chunky salsa.

That's why when the police tell you to come out or they're coming in, you don't go and hide in the closet. *sagenod*

[Mara]

I've had the misfortune of being near a flashbang detonation in a storage closet about 1m x 1.5m, and it's definitely capable of chunky salsa.

That's why when the police tell you to come out or they're coming in, you don't go and hide in the closet. *sagenod*

Well...you do..you just put the physical barrier up so that grenades bounce off it and into the Star..

[KarmaInferno]

I recall a news report from a few years ago where a cop tried to chuck a flashbang through a crackhouse window without realizing that particular window had it's glass replaced by an 1/8 inch sheet of plastic...



-k

[Crash_00]

Is it safe to toss flashbangs into a crackhouse ever? I know methlabs will level out from flashbangs or teargas (local PD made that mistake in my home town while I was in high school. There was a chain reaction of meth lab explosions that took out a lot of trailers. ) Then again, that park was known as Southcrack instead of Southcreek at that point in time.

[ArkangelWinter]

In a crackhouse, flash and clear. Methlab, no. Crack manufacture doesnt involve nearly as much in.the way of volatile/explosive ingredients.

[KarmaInferno]

Just don't follow this example.

Good thing they were only on a training exercise.



-k

[Lethe]

So the mage casts physical barrier, over cast it, so its force 12+, and created a container for the infected orcs, with just a bit a room between the roof and the barrier.  The team then pops two grenades into the cilindar...

Now, from memory, I think it was two flash bangs grenades, the barrier area is only 4 metres wide... resulting in a chunky salsa effect!

Flash bangs cause their stun damage through light, sound and shock waves. Sound is some smaller shock wave, but just the same - moving compressed air. Light doesn't even have mass.

The physical barrier spell lets everything molecule sized pass, including air and light and sound. Such a barrier around a flashbang will do (you might have guessed it already) nothing.

No salsa, sorry.

[ArkangelWinter]

By that logic, lots of grenades wouldn't work for Salsa in a magic barrier. Semtek, C4, HE grenades...the shockwave kills as much as, or more than, the fireball (which is plasma and less corporeal than air)