[Blue_Lion]

A spirit possessing any sort of vessel is "considered a single dual-natured entity" (Street Magic, 101), and so you'd target the combined entity with an Opposed Test.  The rules for casting at cyborgs are already laid out (Augmentation, 160; they count as "non-living" for direct combat spells) and are a far more specific set of rules.  I'm not as familiar with AI rules, but my initial impression would be that it counts as "non-living" for spell targeting.

The point was that the use of "character" with no definition of the word "character" in relation is pretty much useless for defense. Is a spirit any more/less of a character than a drone? Anything with a pilot rating has a minor ability to "think" on its own. How is character defined?

I haven't seen anything that states a cyborg (and his body) wouldn't be able to be protected by counterspelling, just that his body is targeted as non-living. Again, living isn't required for counterspelling by the rules.

The problem is that counter spell is used in resist test do drones resist a direct damage spell if it makes the threshold? Now it might applie to inderect spells.

[Crash_00]

I already covered that though:

The rules are horribly written I'll grant you, but as written, a single target spell on a drone would have no counterspell added (it rolls no resistance so getting extra dice to resistance is useless). If it's an AoE, the counterspelling dice are rolled once and applied to all targets protected in the area equally.   

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

I haven't seen anything that states a cyborg (and his body) wouldn't be able to be protected by counterspelling, just that his body is targeted as non-living. Again, living isn't required for counterspelling by the rules.

But being able to resist with an Opposed Test is required.  You get either an Opposed Test or a Threshold, not both.

[Crash_00]

If multiple protected characters are targeted by the same spell, the Counterspelling dice are rolled only once and each target is protected equally.

Who rolls the counterspell dice if their are multiple targets being affected?

There is only one roll of the counterspell dice and all the protected targets in the spell being countered share those results equally.

I've already shown the blatant issue with the rules that non-living items cannot benefit from counterspelling if they are the only target (since with single target spells the target rolls the counterspell dice with their normal resistance). That isn't to say that they cannot be chosen for a counterspell target, just that by RAW they don't gain a benefit in those circumstances.

Fast forward to the ever present AoE spells and it gets considerably murkier because if they are chosen as a counterspell target, they get to share those counterspelling results equally just like all other targets. "They" didn't get an opposed test. They still had counterspelling applied to them. How this mechanically works is up to the GM really, as the game doesn't go any further into it.

[emeketos]

It seems simple to me once you consider counter spelling isn't targeting the players as much as the spell being cast.

It would work just like an regular test it subtract's hits from the casters dice or you could view it for threshold tests which would likely apply to non-living objects it increases the threshold number

[Zilfer]

It seems simple to me once you consider counter spelling isn't targeting the players as much as the spell being cast.

It would work just like an regular test it subtract's hits from the casters dice or you could view it for threshold tests which would likely apply to non-living objects it increases the threshold number

If it's affecting the spell being cast itself don't you think then it would reduce the overal affect of the spell?

If this were true than I could say i'm counterspelling for 1 member of the group and if that group member is hit by an AoE that means it's affecting the spell and thus any hits applied to that 1 member of the group is also applied not only to other affected teammates but possibly enemies as well. <.<

As the rules seem to but it seems to be more like a mana bubble filter that you have around those you are counterspelling but hey! It's just a game interperate it how you want .

[Blue_Lion]

I already covered that though:

The rules are horribly written I'll grant you, but as written, a single target spell on a drone would have no counterspell added (it rolls no resistance so getting extra dice to resistance is useless). If it's an AoE, the counterspelling dice are rolled once and applied to all targets protected in the area equally.   

When a targeted charachter is targeted with a spell, she rolls counterspelling dice in additon to the appropriate attribute for resistance test. (That says the dice are added to an opposed test, witch means to be protected you have to have an opposed test.)

If Multiple protected charters are targeted by the same spell, the counter spell dice are rolled once and each target is protected equaly. (Who rolls it that is the GMs call he can or the mage or who ever the dice gods hate. But it still does nothing says it is used when no opposed test is made. Alsoit charter seams to imply something in its self. Are Drones charters I know there are PC and NPC are drones treated as NPC or tools.)

[Crash_00]

Who rolls it that is the GMs call he can or the mage or who ever the dice gods hate. But it still does nothing says it is used when no opposed test is made. Alsoit charter seams to imply something in its self. Are Drones charters I know there are PC and NPC are drones treated as NPC or tools

Does it states it's applied to an opposed test in this case? No. It only states that for the single target case. In fact, it specifically states "each target is protected equally". Nothing states that the target has to be living at all. Not only does this not living target get the benefit, it has to because each target is protected equally. If it doesn't, then no other targets can get protected at all (since it specifically states equally). Keep in mind, this also means that voluntary targets are equally protected by counterspelling as well.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

It just seems weird that I can't counterspell for one vehicle (since it doesn't get a resistance test to which to add dice), but I can protect two vehicles (because I roll the counterspelling dice outside of the test).

[Crash_00]

Similarly it seems weird that, as others have pointed out, you counterspell the spell as it's cast, but it only affects certain targets of the after it is cast. What the dev's actual intent was I can't say, but it is there in the text. The character claim may be work, but shadowrun never actually tells us what is and isn't considered a character as far as the game is concerned. Some say it has to be living, but I would point out that the game is meant to tell a story and stories abound have non-living characters (Marvin the Paranoid Android, Terminator, Deus in Shadowrun). It seems like a blatant case of mechanics not quite adding up with the universe (or universe not quite adding up with mechanics), but it isn't by any means the only case.

A few similar issues:
-Shotguns suffer double uncompensated recoil when fired in Burst Fire mode, but don't when fired in Full Auto mode.
-Called Shots can only be made by melee weapons, and weapons that fire in Single Shot, Semi-Auto and Burst Fire modes. (If you don't see the issue here, no weapon has a listing of SS/SA/BF. Similarly, the weapon only has to be capable of the attack mode, the attack doesn't actually have to be using that attack mode)
-Industrial Solvent is faster acting, cheaper, and more effective than most poisons and completely legal
-Heavy Weapons is the most effective sniping skill

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

Similarly it seems weird that, as others have pointed out, you counterspell the spell as it's cast, but it only affects certain targets of the after it is cast. What the dev's actual intent was I can't say, but it is there in the text. The character claim may be work, but shadowrun never actually tells us what is and isn't considered a character as far as the game is concerned. Some say it has to be living, but I would point out that the game is meant to tell a story and stories abound have non-living characters (Marvin the Paranoid Android, Terminator, Deus in Shadowrun). It seems like a blatant case of mechanics not quite adding up with the universe (or universe not quite adding up with mechanics), but it isn't by any means the only case.

Our own cultural context is a bit of a hindrance, I think.  We tend to think of only biological life, because that's really all we understand.  But in Shadowrun, we see loads of counterexamples.  In Shadowrun, biology is not the sole determiner of life.  If we require that it breathe to be alive, then we deny the life in cyborgs, AIs, spirits, and whatever else exists in the SR world.

[Blue_Lion]

Who rolls it that is the GMs call he can or the mage or who ever the dice gods hate. But it still does nothing says it is used when no opposed test is made. Alsoit charter seams to imply something in its self. Are Drones charters I know there are PC and NPC are drones treated as NPC or tools

Does it states it's applied to an opposed test in this case? No. It only states that for the single target case. In fact, it specifically states "each target is protected equally". Nothing states that the target has to be living at all. Not only does this not living target get the benefit, it has to because each target is protected equally. If it doesn't, then no other targets can get protected at all (since it specifically states equally). Keep in mind, this also means that voluntary targets are equally protected by counterspelling as well.

Your logic is flawed here the first part says it applies to resistence test, and then it refers to charters. The question is does it ever day it applies to anything other than resistence test? No it does not you are tring to say that the first limition only applies to single target but nothing says that multi targets are immune. Why whould it  not applie to the drone if only the drone is targeted but multiple drones if multiple drones are target, that makes no sense.

And culture limitions can be a big part in something bassed off belifes. Drones in shadow run are never considerded alive. Sentence is re requirement for it in non organic so AI pc/npc spirts organics are by default consided alive.

[JustADude]

-Industrial Solvent is faster acting, cheaper, and more effective than most poisons and completely legal

Here's another brain-scratcher for you, although more of the Ladder -> 10-Foot Pole variety: HE Grenades cost less than 5% of the price of the explosive charge you'd need to make one on your own.

Given their known DV and the fact that weight and bulk are at a premium for things like grenades, they would have to use 0.82kg (thanks to the mess that is the Charge Scaling rules) of the most concentrated explosive available, that being Rating 15. That would cost 1230¥. HE Grenades, however, retail for 45¥ a pop. Even assuming they were a full kg of Rating 10 explosive, the cheapest way to get DV 10, that's still 1,000¥ vs 45¥.

Why buy 16F Plastic Explosives at 1,000¥ or 1,500¥ a kilogram when you can buy some 7F HE Grenades at 45¥ a pop, break them down, and not only have the same explosive charge but also a detonator you can use later?

Or, really, don't even bother breaking them down. Just get Gecko version so you can slap them wherever you want and add a second fuse so you can remote-detonate them.




-----

And, just as a reality check for those that don't know about explosives, here's another reason that's full of BS: A real-world Mk3 concussion grenade only weighs 15.6 oz (0.44kg) total weight, with an 8oz (0.23kg) charge of TNT... and TNT is listed as a "measly" Rating 4 explosive. According to the explosive rules in SR4, it would do a whopping 1 DV.

[TheNarrator]

Yeah, I don't even bother buying explosives for my characters anymore, just HE grenades and detonators.

The damage on the explosives is pretty goofy. According to the rules, being right on top of a kilogram of commercial explosive when it goes off does 3P damage. Which is to say, less damage than the smallest handgun in the game, and about on par with an average person with a small knife.