[emeketos]

I have been playing with the drain values of some spells in my current campaign

Basicly in my opinion the stun spells are over powered due to the low drain value and have a much higher kill chance than manabolt spells particularly elemental spells.

I have been normalizing the drain values of the manabolt and stunbolt spells at the manbolt drain values. The only difference game mechanicly is do you want the person breathing or not after casting either mana spell. Even then over casted stunball or stun bolt can currently kill just as fast or even faster.

The other adjustment I have been testing is lowering the drain value on elemental spells but I haven't done enough testing to make sure they aren't unbalanced afterwards

the (f/2)+5 drain is so ridiculously high the current joke around the table is you will knock your self out or kill your self long before killing a street sam with an elemental effect spell. Basically the dice are stacked well into the street samurai's favor.

Average mage before initiating is going to have drain stats of 10-12 dice giving an average drain success rate of 3-4 successes of drain reduction. which means on average casting a Force 1 fireball will give you 1-2 points of drain and generally give the street sam zero damage. Over casting at F10 which is generally the max force a mage can use before initiating. It will have a drain value of 10 and on average give the mage 6 points of physical damage. On the street sam side he can dodge (which he can't with mana spells) use body + armor to reduce the damage. Also If the force level is to low then the elemental damage effect can easily be resisted. Also since the damage is drain related on the mage it can't be healed away with a heal spell must be naturally healed with only the assistance of medicine or first aid.

I have been playing with the idea of making the drain (f/3)+5 or lowering the +5 down 1-2 points. My Goal isn't to  make the elemental spells over powered but to bring them in line with the rest of the damage spells a mage has in his/her arsenal.  The Other idea I have been playing with was to normalizing the drain to about equivalent as the other spells but to give elemental  spells a dice penalty on spellcasting. Drain would be the same as the other physical spells (f/2)+(2 or 3) and hit spell casting with 1-3 dice penalty. I really like the idea of the spellcasting penalties vs drain penalties. it would give a higher possibility of glitchs and misses without completely taking the mage out of combat after casting one spell.

if anyone has any thoughts on this let me know.  Has anyone else tried anything?

[TheNarrator]

I know we are totally wrong but in the campaign we play we use counterspelling as a dodging skill for both direct and indirect spell. A resistance test is still made for both with physical armor for indirect spell and eventually astral armor for direct spell.

Actually, that sounds mostly right. If your team's mage has you on the list of people he's providing Counterspelling for this round, then you should add his Counterspelling skill as a bonus to your resistance test against any spell cast at you, period. And armor (specifically half Impact armor plus appropriate mods) applies to any indirect combat spell that hits you (and you also get to dodge it with Reaction like any ranged attack).

If they thought they were too good compared to indirect spells add a 2nd resist die roll or dodge depending on what he existing roll is supposed to be.

After an incident in one of our current SR4 games where a mage NPC almost killed the runner team's main combat adept with a Force 10 Stunball, the GM has been debating ways to tone down the power of direct combat spells a bit. One suggestion being tossed around was to change the resistance roll from just Willpower to Willpower + Body.

(In a later incident, he almost killed the runner team's mage with the drain on a Banishing attempt. And it wasn't even Physical Drain, just 18 boxes of Stun. That's also generated a houserule discussion. In the game that I'm GMing, I think I might change banishing drain to "Force/2 + 1" to make it a more viable option.)

[emeketos]

After an incident in one of our current SR4 games where a mage NPC almost killed the runner team's main combat adept with a Force 10 Stunball, the GM has been debating ways to tone down the power of direct combat spells a bit. One suggestion being tossed around was to change the resistance roll from just Willpower to Willpower + Body.

(In a later incident, he almost killed the runner team's mage with the drain on a Banishing attempt. And it wasn't even Physical Drain, just 18 boxes of Stun. That's also generated a houserule discussion. In the game that I'm GMing, I think I might change banishing drain to "Force/2 + 1" to make it a more viable option.)

this is why I am normalizing the drain of combat spells. I am very tempted to even the drain values of all spells across the board with the same drain values just hit spell casting with the remainder.

[TheNarrator]

this is why I am normalizing the drain of combat spells. I am very tempted to even the drain values of all spells across the board with the same drain values just hit spell casting with the remainder.

I don't think that's a good idea. The different drain values exist for a reason: to balance the relative power of spells with the risk of being forced to expend resources by taking damage (or spending Edge to redo the Drain Resistance roll, or otherwise trying to avoid the drain damage). Spellcasters probably shouldn't be casting Mob Mind, Mana Static or Mind Probe with the same ease that they cast Magic Fingers and Trid Entertainment.

Nor do I really want to deincentivize Stunball. I actually like that Shadowrun is one of the few RPG systems that actually encourages non-lethal options. Most RPGs seem to make trying to bring someone down without killing them a huge pain in the ass. (D20 system, I'm looking at you.) I have no problem with stun effects having less drain. (But adding one more resistance stat to Direct spells still might not be a bad idea.)

But it seems downright backwards to me that the drain is so high on the indirect combat spells (where the target gets to dodge and resisit damage with armor) compared to the direct combat spells (where the target just gets to roll Willpower or Body). Manaball is lethal to everyone in the radius, who has only Willpower to resist (probably hopeless against the spellcaster's Magic + Spellcasting), and has a Drain of Force/2 + 2. Fireball is also lethal to everone in a radius, but they get to oppose it with their Reaction (much better chance) and resist the damage with Body + 1/2 Impact Armor + Fire Resistance mod, and has a Drain of Force/2 + 5. Which is outrageously high as Drain goes: the aforementioned Mob Mind and Mana Static only have Drain of Force/2 + 4.

Basically, even at a low Force, anyone who casts Fireball and isn't either a high-grade initiate or packing one mother of a drain focus should expect to take damage from Drain. And their target is probably fine. That's not really balanced.

I think it might be more fair if the Drain on the Indirect spells were the same as Manabolt/Manaball, since I think that you can balance the advantages of one (resisted only by Willpower, effects astral targets) with the advantages of the other (can harm non-living targets, can harm unseen targets caught in the radius). I definitely don't think that it should be higher than the Drain on Powerbolt/Powerball, which can kill living targets with only Body to resist and destroy non-living targets by just beating a threshold.

[emeketos]

this is why I am normalizing the drain of combat spells. I am very tempted to even the drain values of all spells across the board with the same drain values just hit spell casting with the remainder.

I don't think that's a good idea. The different drain values exist for a reason: to balance the relative power of spells with the risk of being forced to expend resources by taking damage (or spending Edge to redo the Drain Resistance roll, or otherwise trying to avoid the drain damage). Spellcasters probably shouldn't be casting Mob Mind, Mana Static or Mind Probe with the same ease that they cast Magic Fingers and Trid Entertainment.

Nor do I really want to deincentivize Stunball. I actually like that Shadowrun is one of the few RPG systems that actually encourages non-lethal options. Most RPGs seem to make trying to bring someone down without killing them a huge pain in the ass. (D20 system, I'm looking at you.) I have no problem with stun effects having less drain. (But adding one more resistance stat to Direct spells still might not be a bad idea.)

But it seems downright backwards to me that the drain is so high on the indirect combat spells (where the target gets to dodge and resisit damage with armor) compared to the direct combat spells (where the target just gets to roll Willpower or Body). Manaball is lethal to everyone in the radius, who has only Willpower to resist (probably hopeless against the spellcaster's Magic + Spellcasting), and has a Drain of Force/2 + 2. Fireball is also lethal to everone in a radius, but they get to oppose it with their Reaction (much better chance) and resist the damage with Body + 1/2 Impact Armor + Fire Resistance mod, and has a Drain of Force/2 + 5. Which is outrageously high as Drain goes: the aforementioned Mob Mind and Mana Static only have Drain of Force/2 + 4.

Basically, even at a low Force, anyone who casts Fireball and isn't either a high-grade initiate or packing one mother of a drain focus should expect to take damage from Drain. And their target is probably fine. That's not really balanced.

I think it might be more fair if the Drain on the Indirect spells were the same as Manabolt/Manaball, since I think that you can balance the advantages of one (resisted only by Willpower, effects astral targets) with the advantages of the other (can harm non-living targets, can harm unseen targets caught in the radius). I definitely don't think that it should be higher than the Drain on Powerbolt/Powerball, which can kill living targets with only Body to resist and destroy non-living targets by just beating a threshold.

I am not yet interested in touching any of the non combat spells like magic fingers or trid entertainment just the direct and indirect combat spells. Right now there never is a reason for a mage to cast either Stunbolt, stunball, or Clout (for attacking drones & Vehicles).  Since right now in 4th addition damage of spells is determined by the drain value not the force of what a mage can reasonably cast. There is no incentive to cast any of the other spells.

with stun bolt and its drain of DV: (F ÷ 2)-1 a mage can reasonable expect to cast force 10 (11 if the mage has a magic stat of 6) stun bolt and take no drain. & since spellcasting + magic will almost always beat a willpower of 4 or 2 for some of the other combat classes there is no reason to expect the spell to do less than 10 points of stun damage even with a mage covering the group with counterspelling there will be little reduction in the damage caused. Worst case if there is a mage in the area you can always use a bound summoned spirit "aid spellcasting" to over power any mage.

[this is why you ALWAYS cover your team with counterspelling chummers & learn centering first when initiating]

The mage could also cast stunball DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1 at force 10 and only expect 1-2 points of drain damage (none if initiated with centering)  and kill an entire area of attackers. Clout or blast are equally effective for the same reason (for attacking drones)

a mage casting fireball on the other hand at f10 is going to be hit with 10 points of physical drain value (which is going to be far better than casting 2 f5 fireballs for 7 points of drain each). Also remember any spirit you summon gets an elemental effect for free on their attacks. Its the best way to add elemental damage at present just "envision" what element your spirit uses when you summon them.

I dont want to reduce the incentive of casting stun spells there is plenty of incentive to cast them from the start. The incentive isn't the drain value its the fact you will not be brought up on murder charges for recklessly killing all a corp's compound guards for a extraction of an employee. The Corp may be more inclined to higher you in the future if you don't leave lots of collateral damage in your wake. with enough time you can always "alter memory" the guards you knocked unconscious with them never knowing you were there in the first place.  This assuming you have a hacker making sure the security cam's also do not record your presence.  The other incentive to consider is combat types (gun/melee/adept) have generally less of a stun track than a damage track so you can always take them down faster with a stun spell. The third incentive is its vastly easier to interrogate a unconscious victim for information vs a dead one.

I don't want to dramatically alter the balance between spells I just want to adjust them slightly so there is some insensitive to learn different spells. 

I am hesitant to alter the way mana spells are resisted but it would be reasonably to try to test it out.

[All4BigGuns]

this is why I am normalizing the drain of combat spells. I am very tempted to even the drain values of all spells across the board with the same drain values just hit spell casting with the remainder.

I don't think that's a good idea. The different drain values exist for a reason: to balance the relative power of spells with the risk of being forced to expend resources by taking damage (or spending Edge to redo the Drain Resistance roll, or otherwise trying to avoid the drain damage). Spellcasters probably shouldn't be casting Mob Mind, Mana Static or Mind Probe with the same ease that they cast Magic Fingers and Trid Entertainment.

Nor do I really want to deincentivize Stunball. I actually like that Shadowrun is one of the few RPG systems that actually encourages non-lethal options. Most RPGs seem to make trying to bring someone down without killing them a huge pain in the ass. (D20 system, I'm looking at you.) I have no problem with stun effects having less drain. (But adding one more resistance stat to Direct spells still might not be a bad idea.)

But it seems downright backwards to me that the drain is so high on the indirect combat spells (where the target gets to dodge and resisit damage with armor) compared to the direct combat spells (where the target just gets to roll Willpower or Body). Manaball is lethal to everyone in the radius, who has only Willpower to resist (probably hopeless against the spellcaster's Magic + Spellcasting), and has a Drain of Force/2 + 2. Fireball is also lethal to everone in a radius, but they get to oppose it with their Reaction (much better chance) and resist the damage with Body + 1/2 Impact Armor + Fire Resistance mod, and has a Drain of Force/2 + 5. Which is outrageously high as Drain goes: the aforementioned Mob Mind and Mana Static only have Drain of Force/2 + 4.

Basically, even at a low Force, anyone who casts Fireball and isn't either a high-grade initiate or packing one mother of a drain focus should expect to take damage from Drain. And their target is probably fine. That's not really balanced.

I think it might be more fair if the Drain on the Indirect spells were the same as Manabolt/Manaball, since I think that you can balance the advantages of one (resisted only by Willpower, effects astral targets) with the advantages of the other (can harm non-living targets, can harm unseen targets caught in the radius). I definitely don't think that it should be higher than the Drain on Powerbolt/Powerball, which can kill living targets with only Body to resist and destroy non-living targets by just beating a threshold.

I am not yet interested in touching any of the non combat spells like magic fingers or trid entertainment just the direct and indirect combat spells. Right now there never is a reason for a mage to cast either Stunbolt, stunball, or Clout (for attacking drones & Vehicles).  Since right now in 4th addition damage of spells is determined by the drain value not the force of what a mage can reasonably cast. There is no incentive to cast any of the other spells.

with stun bolt and its drain of DV: (F ÷ 2)-1 a mage can reasonable expect to cast force 10 (11 if the mage has a magic stat of 6) stun bolt and take no drain. & since spellcasting + magic will almost always beat a willpower of 4 or 2 for some of the other combat classes there is no reason to expect the spell to do less than 10 points of stun damage even with a mage covering the group with counterspelling there will be little reduction in the damage caused. Worst case if there is a mage in the area you can always use a bound summoned spirit "aid spellcasting" to over power any mage.

[this is why you ALWAYS cover your team with counterspelling chummers & learn centering first when initiating]

The mage could also cast stunball DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1 at force 10 and only expect 1-2 points of drain damage (none if initiated with centering)  and kill an entire area of attackers. Clout or blast are equally effective for the same reason (for attacking drones)

a mage casting fireball on the other hand at f10 is going to be hit with 10 points of physical drain value (which is going to be far better than casting 2 f5 fireballs for 7 points of drain each). Also remember any spirit you summon gets an elemental effect for free on their attacks. Its the best way to add elemental damage at present just "envision" what element your spirit uses when you summon them.

I dont want to reduce the incentive of casting stun spells there is plenty of incentive to cast them from the start. The incentive isn't the drain value its the fact you will not be brought up on murder charges for recklessly killing all a corp's compound guards for a extraction of an employee. The Corp may be more inclined to higher you in the future if you don't leave lots of collateral damage in your wake. with enough time you can always "alter memory" the guards you knocked unconscious with them never knowing you were there in the first place.  This assuming you have a hacker making sure the security cam's also do not record your presence.  The other incentive to consider is combat types (gun/melee/adept) have generally less of a stun track than a damage track so you can always take them down faster with a stun spell. The third incentive is its vastly easier to interrogate a unconscious victim for information vs a dead one.

I don't want to dramatically alter the balance between spells I just want to adjust them slightly so there is some insensitive to learn different spells. 

I am hesitant to alter the way mana spells are resisted but it would be reasonably to try to test it out.

There already is plenty of incentive to learn different spells. 1) Healing/curing disease of allies. 2) Having utilitarian spells (Orgy for one is great for shutting down low Will types without hurting them at all).  3) Combative spells that can royally frag drones (the Indirect spells Lightning Bolt and Ball Lightning are good here).

[Crash_00]

Clout or blast are equally effective for the same reason (for attacking drones)

Clout and Blast deal stun damage, so drone's wouldn't even be phased (vehicles don't take stun damage).
Wreck/Demolish (Drone) would work though at the same Drain.

The reasons for taking other spells are there, just often overlooked. A force 10 fireball/flamethrower should be destroying armor, popping off ammunition, and wreaking general havoc on the target. Remember, a fireball/powerbolt/etc. won't just hit the people in the area, it will trash everything in the area that's OR it beats. That means a well cast F10 Powerball is going to leave people in the vicinity naked and gearless if not dead usually.

Also remember that if you toss a fireball it's going to hit everyone in the radius, a stunball will only catch people you can see in the radius.

The issue of course, is that anyone without counterspelling support is unlikely to be able to resist enough damage to stay up no matter what direct spell you toss at them. This is doubly compounded by drain being ridiculously low in SR4.

[emeketos]

I am not talking about non combat spells such as healing only combat spells. There is obviously good reasons to learn spells in other catagories but thats not the focus of this discussion. Specificly Combat spells only.

Again Lightning Bolt & Ball Lightning the drain values are too high to make any use for attacking drones.

Lets do a casting example Mages have 10 dice for drain. All dice rolls are expected averages
Mage has Spellcasting of 6 & Magic of 5 (11 dice magic pool)
Drone has a 10 point damage track 6 points of armor and a body of 6 dodge pool of 8 (pilot 4/evasion4)
Mage spell casting hits : 3.66
Drone Dodge hits 2.66
Mages have 1 extra hit which could be applied to damage for 1 extra point of drain.

Mage 1 cast Clout Wreck at a drone expecting to be in the fight a while he casts it only at Force 7 (DV:  (f/2) 3 drain which mage 1 takes NO DRAIN
Drone resists w/ body&armor = 4 points of damage reduction (3 points of damage)

Mage 2 Casts Lightning Bolt at Force 7. (DV: (f/2)+3 = 6 mage 2 takes 3 points of physical damage and a 1 dice penalty of future rolls.
Drone resists w/ 1/2 armor + body  = 3 hits Drone takes 4 points of damage
Mage 3 Casts Lightning ball at Force 7 (DV (F/2)+5 = 8 Mage 3 will take 5 points of physical Damage
Drone resists w/ 1/2 armor + body  = 3 hits Drone takes 4 points of damage

Drones will get 2x armor Body + armor (6/6) to resist the effects of the elemental damage (12 dice) or 4 hits this compares to the hits the mage had on spell casting (3.75) so on average the drone with 6 points of armor will have NO secondary effects of the electrical damage.

now both spells are indirect so the drone can dodge & resist with armor lightning will 1/2 armor value. While the drone being hit by clout may resist more damage he is facing a mage that has taken no drain related damage. Mages 2  may have matched the drones damage with a 1 point advantage  & mage 4 will have taken MORE damage than the drone did.

of course mages could pump up the force of the spell to add more damage but each 2 points will increase the damage the mages take by 1

[emeketos]

Clout or blast are equally effective for the same reason (for attacking drones)

Clout and Blast deal stun damage, so drone's wouldn't even be phased (vehicles don't take stun damage).
Wreck/Demolish (Drone) would work though at the same Drain.

The reasons for taking other spells are there, just often overlooked. A force 10 fireball/flamethrower should be destroying armor, popping off ammunition, and wreaking general havoc on the target. Remember, a fireball/powerbolt/etc. won't just hit the people in the area, it will trash everything in the area that's OR it beats. That means a well cast F10 Powerball is going to leave people in the vicinity naked and gearless if not dead usually.

Also remember that if you toss a fireball it's going to hit everyone in the radius, a stunball will only catch people you can see in the radius.

The issue of course, is that anyone without counterspelling support is unlikely to be able to resist enough damage to stay up no matter what direct spell you toss at them. This is doubly compounded by drain being ridiculously low in SR4.

definately agree with the counterspelling point Although the easist way to beat a mage with support is using bound spirit (aid sorcery) and w/ aid sorcery it will generally give a higher probability that the drones will be effected (or metahumans) with the elemental effects. Also Power focuses will adjust the Curve a bit towards secondary effects as well but its all dependent on the target your attacking.


** I was just giving a raw example and again it may have scewed the results a bit most drones have less than 4 body at least the average drones most likely the players will see.
also remember objects get a resistance roll vs the elemental damage usually armor(full value)+body for drones or body + Will (3) test + armor bonus to resist the effects of the secondary elemental effects.

[Blue_Lion]

elemetnal spells have higher drain than strait damage spells because of the secodary efefcts. You get hit with a fire ball it can ignite every flamable think in the area and cook off your ammo, bombs, and grenades how many frags did that guy have. Electrical can short out certain things and totaly disable people. Now comparing stun dramage to physical damage spells yes stun are less drain costly but if you have a indirect stun and a direct stun with the optional rule you gain higher chance of damage with direct but more random drain to sage down. While the inderect is more controled drain but lower direct damage. Now elementals have wide secondary effects but all pay the same for the elemental modifier. The rule does not screw over mages as much as rebalance spell choices, incombat spells. Was an atempt to pull people from just mostly using stun bolt/ball to take down there openents, and make the other spells seam better.

[Crash_00]

Wreck is actually direct. It's a limited version of powerbolt. The thing with the direct spells against drones is that you have to beat the OR which is either 5+ or 6+ depending on which copy of the book you use. That means you're going to have to be casting at force 5/6 minimum and get 5/6 hits minimum just to achieve any result. Of course, direct spells ignore the targets armor so if you hit the drone with that (we'll go with OR 5) five hits on a force 5 direct spell that's guaranteed 10 points of damage against it. It doesn't get a resistance roll. The only thing to complicate this is another mage counterspelling (which would effectively increase the number of hits you need to succeed).

On a similar note, indirect spells do not have their drain increased by net hits (that's an optional rule for direct spells). They have their DV increased just like a normal attack would (you're hitting a more vital area). Ignoring whether Lightning Bolt actually does physical damage (electrical damage is treated as stun and elemental effects are applied to the spell stats), it straight up bypasses metallic armor. That means most, if not all, vehicle armor is going to be useless unless you've taken the special armor mod for non-conductive (which is a smart idea).

[emeketos]

There is a reason why planes are covered in a metal shell so the insides never get hit by lightning. Lightning will follow the path of least resistance which means it will hit the shell go all around on the outside and to ground if available. All it will take to protect a drone from electric attacks is give the electricity somewhere to go and somewhere not to go. A little shielding w/ a non-conductive material such as plastic or ceramic or any material that has more resistance than the outer armor shell.  Most components as per the rules aren't vulnerable to electrical damage they are either shielded or quite simply do not use current to pass messages. I am not saying drones are immune to electrical damage I am saying its not going to act like in the movies where electricity blows out everything. So ironicly I dont want to "special" mod the armor against electric attacks I want to protect the components on the inside.

This of course is assuming the armor is made out of metal in the first place. to be honest I am not sure if it ever directly says armor is metal. For a flying drone I suspect the armor would NOT be metal but light weight composites/ceramics/or other unknown materials (carbon fiber?) But this is going out of my knowledge base I would be only speculating.

fire doesn't quite act the same of course or cold or other elements.

also drones are one thing people are another animal comepletely. People tend to have a hell of alot more armor than drones. a Body 5 sam with stacking armor is going to have  much much more armor than we are mentioning here.


But this is all getting a little off track. I know or understand "why" elemental spells have a higher drain value than non elemental spells. my point is with the drain being higher its effectively worthless to use. Even a higher level initiate with lots of centering dice given the choice of casting a spell at +5 drain or +2 the mage will always go with the +2 it means he can raise the Force level by 6  more points for the same drain. I do think elemental spells should be more difficult to use than non elemental spells but I think there needs to be a closer look as to how to make them more difficult. Which is why I suggested the possibility of a dice penalty to spellcasting as one option. Another would be to lower the drain slightly to keep them in line with the other spells. I don't know what the best answer is which is why I bring the question here. Other ideas I was thinking of is a delayed drain such as you get by using some of the patches or drugs. As it stands right now the only creature that has any chance of casting fireball effectively is a high level initiate pixie.  I dont want to see the elemental spells only available w/ the min/maxed mages from hell.

I guess the irony here is the discussion we are talking about stun spells being used to kill people and what should be the most destructive spells in the game to stun?

getting off the elemental effects question is anyone in disagreement about the stun spells drain being too low?

[emeketos]

one other idea I was thinking of for elemental effects is to pay for them with karma in the same way a technomancer pays to add rust or +AP to his attack spells sorry "complex forms" because technomancers aren't mages (wink wink).  Drain values again would be the same as its normal version but would cost more karma to have in your inventory.  This is a more radical adjustment to elemental spells but it is in line with the way other classes change their attacks. This could perhaps open up a large gambit of options that you could customize your spells such as adding armor piercing to indirect spells or flashbang effects or anything that could be a secondary option for spell customization.

[Shinobi Killfist]

elemetnal spells have higher drain than strait damage spells because of the secodary efefcts. You get hit with a fire ball it can ignite every flamable think in the area and cook off your ammo, bombs, and grenades how many frags did that guy have. Electrical can short out certain things and totaly disable people. Now comparing stun dramage to physical damage spells yes stun are less drain costly but if you have a indirect stun and a direct stun with the optional rule you gain higher chance of damage with direct but more random drain to sage down. While the inderect is more controled drain but lower direct damage. Now elementals have wide secondary effects but all pay the same for the elemental modifier. The rule does not screw over mages as much as rebalance spell choices, incombat spells. Was an atempt to pull people from just mostly using stun bolt/ball to take down there openents, and make the other spells seam better.

I kind of assume the point of elemental effects s to help you defeat your enemies.  So if a direct combat spell will defeat enemies quicker and for less drain does it really matter that it did not come with a snazzy elemental effect?  Look I cooked off his ammo and he takes X more damage from his rounds going off vs um cool I just knocked him and his friends out with one spell for less drain.

As a side note on the stun thing, I wish they toned down stun effects like tasers and stun bolt etc in some way.  It isn't really a tough choice for your character to make to stick to his morals and not kill people if it is actually more effective to stun them. 

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

Wreck is actually direct. It's a limited version of powerbolt. The thing with the direct spells against drones is that you have to beat the OR which is either 5+ or 6+ depending on which copy of the book you use. That means you're going to have to be casting at force 5/6 minimum and get 5/6 hits minimum just to achieve any result. Of course, direct spells ignore the targets armor so if you hit the drone with that (we'll go with OR 5) five hits on a force 5 direct spell that's guaranteed 10 points of damage against it. It doesn't get a resistance roll. The only thing to complicate this is another mage counterspelling (which would effectively increase the number of hits you need to succeed).

That Force 5 spell can only get 5 hits total (barring the use of Edge), so it actually fails against an OR 5 target.  Net hits = Hits - Threshold (p. 63, SR4A), and the Spellcasting+Magic Test requires at least one net hit to succeed (p. 183, SR4A, first paragraph under Step 5).  Since the Hits scored cannot exceed the Force (p. 183, SR4A, second-to-last paragraph), you'd have to cast the spell with a Force greater than the OR to even be able to succeed, and the OR is the Threshold for the Test, so the net hits are going to be correspondingly fewer.  If I cast a Force 6 direct spell against an OR 5 target, I can score up to 1 net hit (6 total hits, 5 of which go against the Threshold), for a total of 7 damage.

Counterspelling has no effect on a non-living, non-magic target, because Counterspelling dice are added to the resistance test (p. 185, 2nd paragraph under Spell Defense), and "A spell cast on a non-living, non-magic target is not resisted" (p. 183).  Additionally, "thresholds are never applied to Opposed Tests" (p. 63, last sentence); you can have an Opposed Test or a Success Test against a Threshold, never a combination.