[Crash_00]

No you can't 'sleaze' into the wired reflexes, muscle replacements, cyber eyes, cyber ears, etc, etc. They are all controlled directly by your brain, not by any signal from comm or network or anything else, and thus the only thing you'd get from hacking any cyberware is the same thing someone posted about the bone lacing, but they would have no control over anything.

You seem to be failing to grasp the concept of a network. In this case, the comlink, brain, and cyberware are all part of the network (the I in DNI is interface, which is how the brain is interfacing with the network). If you hack into the commlink, you can spoof commands to the network, having them act like they came from the brain. This is because the way everything works, it has to be slaved to the commlink to be part of the PAN.

So, if you have your ware connected through a commlink for any reason, it has become part of your PAN, DNI or not does not matter in the least for this purpose. Your entire stance relies on cyberware only being able to be controlled by the brain, which is clearly not the case. Both the vulnerability section and details on the way cyberdocs use the wireless signal to make operation and diagnostics easier support that it can be operated by PAN or by Brain. Now, sure the person has to have valid access to the PAN, but that can be hacked or spoofed by a good hacker.

[Zilfer]

As far as I'm concerned if you go wired with everything your going to look pretty weird with a bunch of wires running through you or through your coat or skin. XD

Anyways I'm curious as to "wired guns" Wouldn't that get in the way of shooting? also after a gun fire your going to have to replace wires periodically from wear and tear if you have that many wires running through you.

Also Crash is right just because it's 'controlled' by your brain doesn't mean anything. Your brain controls it with electrical impulses, same as a computer talks to another computer, or your keyboard to your computer. So if you worm your way into the network, and the 1 comlink is linked to this which is linked to this comlink linked to the next comlink doesn't mean it's going to stop it. Mostly slow down a hacker is all I can see it doing.

[Crash_00]

Anyways I'm curious as to "wired guns" Wouldn't that get in the way of shooting? also after a gun fire your going to have to replace wires periodically from wear and tear if you have that many wires running through you.

As long as you don't keep them too tight, it really shouldn't be an issue. They've actually done something similar before connecting mounted cameras to a backpack transmitter back in the day. As long as it doesn't restrict your range of motion it shouldn't bother anything. That said, having a dozen wires connected to various things could cause issues (lets face it, wires have a natural compulsion to become hopelessly tangled), but that's what the harness is for I'm assuming. The wires would need to be replaced after a while, but I wouldn't think it would be much more often than any other cables used commonly in a combat environment (its mostly going to be snags scrapes and possible damage from explosions/gunshots/cuts that causes wear and tear on them).

Your brain controls it with electrical impulses, same as a computer talks to another computer, or your keyboard to your computer.

I think this is where most people don't get it. They just don't seem to realize that even though DNI is your brain controlling it, it's your brain controlling it in a computer language. Chances are we aren't talking about a low-level assembly language here either, but a full blown high level language as common as cyberware has become. At that point, the commands being sent by your brain are no different than any other computer commands.

[All4BigGuns]

Regardless, I don't think the 'hacking cyberware' thing works, and my mind won't be changed. You all can assume it does all you want, but I'm going to continue as I have and keep ruling it as impossible to do, and if a hacker tries it in a game I run, I'll just give them the diagnostic reports and let them know that's all they can get out of it. Their time would be much better served hacking a nearby Americar and causing it to run over the opposition.

[Zilfer]

Anyways I'm curious as to "wired guns" Wouldn't that get in the way of shooting? also after a gun fire your going to have to replace wires periodically from wear and tear if you have that many wires running through you.

As long as you don't keep them too tight, it really shouldn't be an issue. They've actually done something similar before connecting mounted cameras to a backpack transmitter back in the day. As long as it doesn't restrict your range of motion it shouldn't bother anything. That said, having a dozen wires connected to various things could cause issues (lets face it, wires have a natural compulsion to become hopelessly tangled), but that's what the harness is for I'm assuming. The wires would need to be replaced after a while, but I wouldn't think it would be much more often than any other cables used commonly in a combat environment (its mostly going to be snags scrapes and possible damage from explosions/gunshots/cuts that causes wear and tear on them).

Your brain controls it with electrical impulses, same as a computer talks to another computer, or your keyboard to your computer.

I think this is where most people don't get it. They just don't seem to realize that even though DNI is your brain controlling it, it's your brain controlling it in a computer language. Chances are we aren't talking about a low-level assembly language here either, but a full blown high level language as common as cyberware has become. At that point, the commands being sent by your brain are no different than any other computer commands.

Yes, to communicate with the Cyberware there needs to be programming to make the machine understand your electrical impulses in 1's and 0's.  On's an offs are what make pretty much all electronics work, and if you change that you just changed what the device is going to do.

[Sichr]

Regardless, I don't think the 'hacking cyberware' thing works, and my mind won't be changed. You all can assume it does all you want, but I'm going to continue as I have and keep ruling it as impossible to do, and if a hacker tries it in a game I run, I'll just give them the diagnostic reports and let them know that's all they can get out of it. Their time would be much better served hacking a nearby Americar and causing it to run over the opposition.

You are sad example of GM/Player.From other posts Ive seen it looks like if anyone else imposes any limits onto your character, he is na idiot who deserves to be left alone in some dark place. On the other side, limiting possibilities for others (with beautiful examples, I`d recomend you watch GITS: Innocence, where Batou was in some serrious troubles due to the sucesfull cyberware hacks) seems completely legal for you. bah. Just a sudden explosion, this aint worthy of further writings...

[Tsuzua]

I think this is where most people don't get it. They just don't seem to realize that even though DNI is your brain controlling it, it's your brain controlling it in a computer language. Chances are we aren't talking about a low-level assembly language here either, but a full blown high level language as common as cyberware has become. At that point, the commands being sent by your brain are no different than any other computer commands.

One common belief is also that the computer that reads the signals from the brain and moves the limb doesn't receive orders from the cyberarm's node (which provides at most diagnostic information).  Thus you have no way to spoof the neural signal unless you hook directly up to the limb.  Though honestly, you ought to get a wireless-less cyberarm anyways because why not?  Considering how an uber AI made everyone into puppet slaves about 15 years ago, people may still be worried about that.

Generally I go with no wireless command of cyberlimbs mainly due to all the questions wireless command opens up.  How does one command a cyberlimb?  Can my friend command rig it?  Can I command rig my own arm?  What if it isn't my arm and just an arm duct taped on?  Does the duct tape command arm cost me essence?  Why do cyborgs hit essence 0 if all they're doing is just losing body parts (which doesn't cost essence)?  My soul doesn't normally care about jumping into drones.  Can I just be a human stump and move around with my drone body parts?  Can I control myself by jumping into my skillwires since they can control my actions?  SR doesn't really discuss these sort of things and I don't want to figure it out whole-cloth.

SR never has really dealt with the fact of easy brain-machine interfacing ever since the introduction of simsense.  The closest I've seen is Frank Trollman's Ends of the Matrix. 

[Crash_00]

One common belief is also that the computer that reads the signals from the brain and moves the limb doesn't receive orders from the cyberarm's node (which provides at most diagnostic information).  Thus you have no way to spoof the neural signal unless you hook directly up to the limb.  Though honestly, you ought to get a wireless-less cyberarm anyways because why not?  Considering how an uber AI made everyone into puppet slaves about 15 years ago, people may still be worried about that.

You don't have to get the arm to send signals back to that computer though. You just need to get into that computer and send signals to the arm.

With a wireless arm, you aren't under any threat at all unless you decide to connect it to a network that is open to wireless. Look at it this way. Take an old late 80s computer hooked up. No connection to anything other than the monitor and keyboard. Nothing can hack into it from the outside because it isn't connected to anything. You sure as hell can't hack in wirelessly. Now, connect that same computer up to a network and take away it's keyboard were it can only receive commands from another computer (we'll call  that 1980s computer the cyberarm and the new computer the translator that is interpreting brain impulses). If the other computer isn't connected to anything else, it still is unhackable. Now, hook that other computer to a network full of computers, one of which has a wireless connection. Now, people can hack in through the wireless connection and have fun with anything on the network. It isn't the easiest thing in the world, but it can be done.

As for the fear, looking at what people have done through open wi-fi connections today and most people still don't bother to even attempt basic matr...errr...internet security measures like setting up a password for their network, I don't think even that is going to change your average person's sheer laziness.

Generally I go with no wireless command of cyberlimbs mainly due to all the questions wireless command opens up.  How does one command a cyberlimb?  Can my friend command rig it?  Can I command rig my own arm?  What if it isn't my arm and just an arm duct taped on?  Does the duct tape command arm cost me essence?  Why do cyborgs hit essence 0 if all they're doing is just losing body parts (which doesn't cost essence)?  My soul doesn't normally care about jumping into drones.  Can I just be a human stump and move around with my drone body parts?  Can I control myself by jumping into my skillwires since they can control my actions?  SR doesn't really discuss these sort of things and I don't want to figure it out whole-cloth.

Well in all fairness, in past editions losing limbs could cause you to lose essence on it's own (deadly damage could even if it didn't result in limb loss). I think the hardest part of controlling cyberware is that being DNI, your command is going to get overridden pretty damn fast. So you spoof a command to the arm, the user thinks no thanks, and its over. Some things would work fairly easily (move finger to hold trigger down), others wouldn't be effective (make a fist) because the user can just relax with a thought. I don't think you could command rig a cyberlimb, they aren't really drones. I do think that you could spoof commands to them all day long. Or edit data being relayed by them and such. The key is that, to be effective, they have to be things that either A.) are done in a very short time span (so the user doesn't just nullify it with a thought) or B.) things that the user won't automatically notice (edited data feeds).

I don't know how RAW it actually is, but I know in at least one Mission, the head of a brothel is said to "control" the actions of a joytoy through their skillwires, and their used to be cyberware allowing the rigger to jump into a human and ride along with complete sensory (although it didn't allow direct control). It all just got simplified to the extreme in SR4/A.

Regardless, I don't think the 'hacking cyberware' thing works, and my mind won't be changed. You all can assume it does all you want, but I'm going to continue as I have and keep ruling it as impossible to do, and if a hacker tries it in a game I run, I'll just give them the diagnostic reports and let them know that's all they can get out of it. Their time would be much better served hacking a nearby Americar and causing it to run over the opposition.

You're free to houserule what you want. We never claimed houserules don't exist. A discussion of how the game actually works really isn't going to benefit from input that only focuses on your houserules though. Likewise, if someone wants to actually know what something is, putting forth your houserules as an answer only serves to confuse/mislead the new player. That's just cruel.

[Tsuzua]

You don't have to get the arm to send signals back to that computer though. You just need to get into that computer and send signals to the arm.

With a wireless arm, you aren't under any threat at all unless you decide to connect it to a network that is open to wireless. Look at it this way. Take an old late 80s computer hooked up. No connection to anything other than the monitor and keyboard. Nothing can hack into it from the outside because it isn't connected to anything. You sure as hell can't hack in wirelessly. Now, connect that same computer up to a network and take away it's keyboard were it can only receive commands from another computer (we'll call  that 1980s computer the cyberarm and the new computer the translator that is interpreting brain impulses). If the other computer isn't connected to anything else, it still is unhackable. Now, hook that other computer to a network full of computers, one of which has a wireless connection. Now, people can hack in through the wireless connection and have fun with anything on the network. It isn't the easiest thing in the world, but it can be done.

I think the point is the same.  Why does the computer that controls the cyberlimb need to talk to anything other than the metahuman's brain?  I mean if you can talk to the computer, then you can hack it.  But why shouldn't that computer be reachable by anything other minor surgery?  If they can take the time to take off the panels of your cyberlimb to plug in, you're in trouble anyways.  Why isn't this the default?  And if so, it effectively means you can't hack a cyberlimb the vast majority of the time you'll want to.

To be fair, my argument hasn't been if your cyberlimb is on a network, can you control it over it?  The answer is yes.  It's why would you want to since it's so easy not to.  Also, as a GM, I pretend you can't put a cyberlimb on the network because holy drek I don't want to derive how this shit works.

As for the fear, looking at what people have done through open wi-fi connections today and most people still don't bother to even attempt basic matr...errr...internet security measures like setting up a password for their network, I don't think even that is going to change your average person's sheer laziness.

To the best of my knowledge, a modern unsecured wi-fi connection hasn't ever turned someone into a zombie slave of an super-intelligent AI.  Also "hacking safe" is a great buzzword to slap on a cyberlimb and you can do that though isolation of the command computer and doesn't cost much to do.

Well in all fairness, in past editions losing limbs could cause you to lose essence on it's own (deadly damage could even if it didn't result in limb loss). I think the hardest part of controlling cyberware is that being DNI, your command is going to get overridden pretty damn fast. So you spoof a command to the arm, the user thinks no thanks, and its over. Some things would work fairly easily (move finger to hold trigger down), others wouldn't be effective (make a fist) because the user can just relax with a thought. I don't think you could command rig a cyberlimb, they aren't really drones. I do think that you could spoof commands to them all day long. Or edit data being relayed by them and such. The key is that, to be effective, they have to be things that either A.) are done in a very short time span (so the user doesn't just nullify it with a thought) or B.) things that the user won't automatically notice (edited data feeds).

I don't know how RAW it actually is, but I know in at least one Mission, the head of a brothel is said to "control" the actions of a joytoy through their skillwires, and their used to be cyberware allowing the rigger to jump into a human and ride along with complete sensory (although it didn't allow direct control). It all just got simplified to the extreme in SR4/A.

In older editions, you could lose magic when you took a deadly wound, not essence (at least not since 2nd edition). 

Part of the question is that if you can control a cyberlimb by spoofing it, what happens if I control it when I'm a legit user?  Can I order my friend's cyberlimb to shoot on its own?  Does it use its own agility?  It opens a lot of questions.  You can say that one is considered to be jumped in into one's cyberlimb.  But that auto-defeats hacking and spoofing attempts so you can't hack it.

As for the brothel, they were using personafix* chips to control the people.  Then they just loaded the appropriate skillsofts into the joytoy's skillwires and let them do their thing.  You can make someone into an enraged killer with a personafix chip and then give skills in the skillwires.  You can't control what they exactly do though with this method.

*- Outside of grimdark brothels, doesn't get used or discussed much.  You think that'll be odd since you can change people's personalities trivially with them. 

[Zilfer]

To the best of my knowledge, a modern unsecured wi-fi connection hasn't ever turned someone into a zombie slave of an super-intelligent AI.  Also "hacking safe" is a great buzzword to slap on a cyberlimb and you can do that though isolation of the command computer and doesn't cost much to do.

As long as that "command computer" doesn't link to anything other than your cyberlimbs. If the command computer links to something else which links to something with Wifi then there is a way in. Though that makes it hard to interact with the outside world, and you have to keep track of what can access the outside networks and what can't.

[KarmaInferno]

What's important to remember is that Shadowrun 4th Edition computers don't work entirely like real-world computers.

In the world of the 2070s, every single computer node is not only a computer but is also a network router. They automatically route signals on their network to anywhere else in their network.

If your cyberarm is part of a PAN, and ANY other part of the PAN is connected to a wireless link, someone can wirelessly hack the cyberarm. Even if it's going in from a commlink, into a set of 'trodes or datajack, and then down the DNI link to the cyberarm.

So it is imperative for the security-conscious to isolate any devices that don't need a Matrix connection from the wireless PAN. Modern day security calls this an "air gap", meaning the device is offline and cannot be accessed at all except by physically walking up to it.



-k

[Mirikon]

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say it is imperative to isolate certain systems. While, yes, you can be hacked if it is connected to the PAN at all, the problem isn't as dire as some people make it out to be. You can get just about as much mileage out of simply pumping up the firewalls, dropping some IC on your link, and encrypting things. In the time it takes a hacker to get through all that, you have plenty of time to simply turn off the commlink, and reboot, if your own hacker hasn't dumped them via cybercombat first. And if you don't have a hacker on your side, or you aren't a hacker yourself, you may as well resign yourself to the inevitable. It isn't a question of if you get hacked, but when. The people who worry about someone turning off their cyberleg, or their wired reflexes, or other stuff have a concern, but there are simpler, nastier ways to screw with you that will still leave you wide open to attack, and if you're dealing with someone who can send a hacker that can hack you on the fly, dodge ice, and beat your team's hacker in cybercombat before you have a chance to turn off your commlink, then you're already fragged, you just don't know it yet.

[KarmaInferno]

My point is, it's so very easy in SR4 to secure your non-communications gear against most hacking attempts, even if you have little to no technical ability yourself.

An air gap isn't difficult to achieve.

"None of my gear has wireless circuits, except my commlink, which isn't connected to anything else."

There. Done. Didn't even cost extra.

We could probably get more complex with encryption and extra PANs and the like, but the basic idea, that you don't HAVE wireless on anything that doesn't need it, is so dirt simple and easy to achieve there there's no good reason for a Shadowrunner that's been in the biz for any real time not to have already done it to their gear.

You could leave the front door open, and trust your buddy will watch the door and keep folks from just walking in, or you could just close the damn door so your buddy can concentrate on the actual job.



-k

[Sichr]

RAW every implant has a node with Signal 0, that is used for non-invasive software upgrades etc.
RAW.
If this node can be hacked, it can be hacked for Admin account and it can be edited to not receive commands from Port#[DNI]
As it is peripheral/linked device, it can be spoofed to execute Action.
If the implant is able to execute such command, it will follow that command. If you Command bone lacing to kick on the other side, it wont do anything. If you command cyberware pain editor to set normal feedback at 15 Stun damage boxes, target is incapacitated by pain quite certainly.
Philosophical discussion is possible, but if you just follow given rules, there is no problem to use Hacking/Kidnapping implants during your game, both by PC and against PC.


EDIT: Until the option "Turning it off" comes to play, which means additional cyberware/ hardware modification described in rules, while turning the device on, in case of IE Wired reflexes, Muscle replacement etc, for node maintenance and update reasons, would also require a bit of surgery, since implants are buried deep in flesh.

[UmaroVI]

RAW every implant has a node with Signal 0, that is used for non-invasive software upgrades etc.
RAW.
If this node can be hacked, it can be hacked for Admin account and it can be edited to not receive commands from Port#[DNI]
As it is peripheral/linked device, it can be spoofed to execute Action.
If the implant is able to execute such command, it will follow that command. If you Command bone lacing to kick on the other side, it wont do anything. If you command cyberware pain editor to set normal feedback at 15 Stun damage boxes, target is incapacitated by pain quite certainly.
Philosophical discussion is possible, but if you just follow given rules, there is no problem to use Hacking/Kidnapping implants during your game, both by PC and against PC.

SR4A 314 "Turning it off."