[jonathanc]

It's worth pointing out that not all Jackpointers (or Shadowrunners) are gleeful murderers. Most plan their operations to avoid casualties, and Pistons is actually a Hacker, so it's likely that most of her work never physically harms anyone. While it's possible for her to destroy someone's life with her skills, it's certainly not a given that she does so with any kind of regularity, and when she does it's probably the sort of person she can justify it for (guys like Haze and Sticks, for example).

I like to think of Pistons (and Fatima, RIP) as throwbacks to the more community-minded "Hooding" types that used to hang on Shadowland.

[Angelone]

Pistons is a combat hacker. She actually goes in and shoots people in the face as well. Also she destroys peoples lives regularly as part of her job. What do you think happens to the security spiders she gets past on the way to her objective? Reprimanded at minimum (bye bye promotion), loss of pay or being fired very likely. That's if she doesn't scramble their brains while they try to stop her.

[Mirikon]

There is a moral/ethical difference between scrambling someone's brains in self-defense, and shooting someone in the face for money, or using spells to make someone fall in love with you to get info on their boss, and then erase their memories of you.

Shadowrunners aren't all the same. Pistons, Fatima, and Netcat are one kind of runner. Riser, Haze, and Kane are another. And then you have people like Clockwork.

[CanRay]

Shadowrunners aren't all the same. Pistons, Fatima, and Netcat are one kind of runner. Riser, Haze, and Kane are another. And then you have people like Clockwork.

And then you get folks like Slamm-0! and Plan 9! 

[jonathanc]

Pistons is a combat hacker. She actually goes in and shoots people in the face as well. Also she destroys peoples lives regularly as part of her job. What do you think happens to the security spiders she gets past on the way to her objective? Reprimanded at minimum (bye bye promotion), loss of pay or being fired very likely. That's if she doesn't scramble their brains while they try to stop her.

A thief is responsible for stealing valuables; they aren't responsible for how the security guard they snuck past is dealt with. The term 'combat hacker' doesn't necessarily refer to a trigger-happy hacker; even from a mechanical perspective, there's an argument that going for gel rounds is more effective (people tend to have fewer stun boxes than physical; no bodies means less heat).

It's disingenuous to compare what we know of what Pistons does for a living to, say, what we know Sticks does for a living. Sticks may try to justify it by saying that they're both criminals, but Pistons is competing in a battle of wits against someone who is well-prepared for the game and has consented to play; Sticks makes money by kidnapping child rape victims and dragging them back to their abusers. It's not really in the same ballpark.

[CanRay]

And Kane sells people into slavery to the very country/corporation that imprisoned his wingman/girlfriend for far too many years.

[Angelone]

A thief is responsible for stealing valuables; they aren't responsible for how the security guard they snuck past is dealt with. The term 'combat hacker' doesn't necessarily refer to a trigger-happy hacker; even from a mechanical perspective, there's an argument that going for gel rounds is more effective (people tend to have fewer stun boxes than physical; no bodies means less heat).

It's disingenuous to compare what we know of what Pistons does for a living to, say, what we know Sticks does for a living. Sticks may try to justify it by saying that they're both criminals, but Pistons is competing in a battle of wits against someone who is well-prepared for the game and has consented to play; Sticks makes money by kidnapping child rape victims and dragging them back to their abusers. It's not really in the same ballpark.

The thief thinking they aren't responsible for what happens to the guard is exactly what I am talking about. Yes they are, the thief is very much responsible because they were the cause of what happens to the guard. It's a callous line of thought or lack there of. "Screw 'em they're not even real people they're sheep." A ruined life is a ruined life no matter how you go about doing it.

Are there different degrees of messed up? Yes. Have both killed? Yes. Have both used others? Yes. The methods are different that's it.

Edit- Messing up quotes something fierce today.

[Mirikon]

Angel, there is a difference. Yes, both have killed, but there is a scale involved here. Or would you say that a police sniper shooting the kidnapper with the gun to the head of a small child is the same as the Mayan Cutter, killing orks for fun? Both are killers, afterall. But there is a difference, both morally and ethically, between shooting someone in self defense, and doing wetwork, or between getting past guards to do a datasteal and tracking down little girls to return them to the bunraku parlors. In either comparison, neither one is innocent. Both do bad things. But one is clearly worse than the other, yeah?

[jonathanc]

A thief is responsible for stealing valuables; they aren't responsible for how the security guard they snuck past is dealt with. The term 'combat hacker' doesn't necessarily refer to a trigger-happy hacker; even from a mechanical perspective, there's an argument that going for gel rounds is more effective (people tend to have fewer stun boxes than physical; no bodies means less heat).

It's disingenuous to compare what we know of what Pistons does for a living to, say, what we know Sticks does for a living. Sticks may try to justify it by saying that they're both criminals, but Pistons is competing in a battle of wits against someone who is well-prepared for the game and has consented to play; Sticks makes money by kidnapping child rape victims and dragging them back to their abusers. It's not really in the same ballpark.

The thief thinking they aren't responsible for what happens to the guard is exactly what I am talking about. Yes they are, the thief is very much responsible because they were the cause of what happens to the guard. It's a callous line of thought or lack there of. "Screw 'em they're not even real people they're sheep." A ruined life is a ruined life no matter how you go about doing it.

Are there different degrees of messed up? Yes. Have both killed? Yes. Have both used others? Yes. The methods are different that's it.

Edit- Messing up quotes something fierce today.

Um...no. The "ruined life" is the fault of the manager who decided to fire a security guard (who's whole job is observe and report) for not going full-rambo on the armed terrorists that jacked whatever it was they were guarding. Unless the thief/hacker went so far as to set up the guard or someone else as a patsy, they aren't responsible for how their target overreacts, or who the target lashes out at. If you flip off a guy in traffic and he gets so mad that he goes home and beats his son to death, you aren't responsible for killing his son. He is.

If all killing was the same, we'd have a good portion of our armed forces on death row.

[Angelone]

Pistons and Haze are both criminals working outside of the law, a police sniper and a soldier during wartime are working inside the law. That's the difference between the scenarios the two of you just presented.

Pistons is condemning Haze for being "evil" because of her dislike for him. Who else does she give that much shit too? Kane? Sticks? Jimmy No? Rigger X? Puck? No, hell she's downright sympathetic to Puck.

I was pointing out how out there it was of her to paint Haze as some kind of monster while she doesn't to others.

Edit- As for the firing being the managers fault would the manager have fired the guard if the thief didn't come along? Also killing a guard or spider is okay? Because they knew what they were getting into? Who says "I'm a soldier/guard/spider I really hope someone comes along and kills me because that's what I signed up for."?

[jonathanc]

Pistons and Haze are both criminals working outside of the law, a police sniper and a soldier during wartime are working inside the law. That's the difference between the scenarios the two of you just presented.

A policeman shoots an unarmed man in the back while he's lying on the ground; the man dies. The policeman is working inside the law. A homeless man is being beaten by some bored, rich teenagers; he defends himself and one of the teens dies. He is working outside of the law.

If legal sanction is all that is required to consider one's actions justified, then the policeman is a better person than the homeless man.

Pistons is condemning Haze for being "evil" because of her dislike for him. Who else does she give that much shit too? Kane? Sticks? Jimmy No? Rigger X? Puck? No, hell she's downright sympathetic to Puck.

I was pointing out how out there it was of her to paint Haze as some kind of monster while she doesn't to others.

IIRC, almost nobody defended Sticks.

Edit- As for the firing being the managers fault would the manager have fired the guard if the thief didn't come along? Also killing a guard or spider is okay? Because they knew what they were getting into? Who says "I'm a soldier/guard/spider I really hope someone comes along and kills me because that's what I signed up for."?

In the example I cited, would the man have beaten his son to death if you hadn't flipped him off in traffic? A person's actions are their own; you don't get to blame your decisions on other people. The question is this: was the manager *forced* to ruin the employment record of the security guard by the hacker, or did he make a choice because he was angry?

[Mirikon]

Edit- As for the firing being the managers fault would the manager have fired the guard if the thief didn't come along? Also killing a guard or spider is okay? Because they knew what they were getting into? Who says "I'm a soldier/guard/spider I really hope someone comes along and kills me because that's what I signed up for."?

And it really was Marilyn Manson's fault that a couple kids couldn't take life in high school and shot up Columbine. And Ice T is responsible for every copkiller since his song "Copkiller" came out. Yep, that makes perfect sense.

[/sarcasm]

[CanRay]

Life isn't fair, buy a hat.

[Angelone]

I'm not good with quotes so here goes.

A policeman shoots an unarmed man in the back while he's lying on the ground; the man dies. The policeman is working inside the law. A homeless man is being beaten by some bored, rich teenagers; he defends himself and one of the teens dies. He is working outside of the law.

The homeless man is in the right because it's self defense. (Edit- He's probably going to jail anyway because rich kids daddy) The cop shooting the prone man in the back isn't, it's murder badge or no.

IIRC, almost nobody defended Sticks.

Not my point, my point is no one has been actively condemning him for years. he got called out on the spot and it was dropped. People came to Haze's defense however.

In the example I cited, would the man have beaten his son to death if you hadn't flipped him off in traffic? A person's actions are their own; you don't get to blame your decisions on other people. The question is this: was the manager *forced* to ruin the employment record of the security guard by the hacker, or did he make a choice because he was angry?

The man probably would have beaten his son to death at some point anyway. If he had such a short fuse that someone in traffic could have pushed him to that point it was pretty much a given. As for the manager he might have not wanted to fire the guard, but had to because of policy. It doesn't change the fact that the guard would still have a job if the doohickey wasn't stolen.

And it really was Marilyn Manson's fault that a couple kids couldn't take life in high school and shot up Columbine. And Ice T is responsible for every copkiller since his song "Copkiller" came out. Yep, that makes perfect sense.

[/sarcasm]

Umm... what? How does that relate to anything?

[Mirikon]

And it really was Marilyn Manson's fault that a couple kids couldn't take life in high school and shot up Columbine. And Ice T is responsible for every copkiller since his song "Copkiller" came out. Yep, that makes perfect sense.

[/sarcasm]

Umm... what? How does that relate to anything?

Because if, as you suggest, the thief is responsible for a manager firing a security guard because he snuck past him, then that is the same 'logic' people used when trying to blame Columbine on Marilyn Manson, instead of just admitting that it was the fault of two kids who decided to shoot up their school.