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Starting a Lone Star game and would appreciate input

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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #30 on: <02-27-12/1653:44> »
3rd Edition had Security and Law Enforcement grade legal codes as well as Military grade legal codes.  But none of them allowed permits for 'carrying' those weapons.   It was 'illegal' to carry them, but in certain cases (missions) they would not enforce that law. 

What I'm saying is that if one of the players 'owned' an SMG, it would be illegal.  But if they get issued an SMG as part of a specific operation (like responding to a call in the Barrens), the ban on automatic weapons would not be enforced.  So, yes, be proficient in their use, but don't have it listed as standard equipment.

Ditto what Bruce said

Crash_00

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« Reply #31 on: <02-27-12/1704:00> »
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"You", as in "private citizen" can not get a permit for automatic weapons, no. "You", as in "police officer on duty", on the other hand, can. And I doubt that the legality code in SR3 was used to determine if the cops may use a weapon - it's just for the citizens, not the police.
Legality codes in SR3 indicated what grade of equipment the gear was as well as whether permits existed and how much law enforcement usually cared about the item in question. For example, a knife was was a legality of 8P-E. The 8 meant that no one really gave a damn (high was better) while the E classified it as a pistol, and the P mean it could have a permit. Meanwhile a sniper rifle was 2-K, meaning no permits are available, every officer is going to throw a fit, and it's classified as K meaning Military Weaponry. The classification also gave a list of penalties and jail time for everything from transporting illegal items to using them.

This meant that anything with a P could be owned with a permit. Anything listed as Legal, was fine. Anything without P couldn't be legally owned privately. That said, the classifications let you know fairly well who would be able have such equipment issued, so it really did determine what cops would be able to use.

Irian

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« Reply #32 on: <02-27-12/1718:22> »
Anything without P couldn't be legally owned privately. That said, the classifications let you know fairly well who would be able have such equipment issued, so it really did determine what cops would be able to use.

Somehow I don't get the last sentence, sorry. Yes, "P" told you, if you (the player, a normal citizen) had a chance of ever owning one privately and legally. But that doesn't say anything about cops. So how can this determine what cops would be able to use? I have a hard time imagining SWAT teams without assault and sniper rifles, for example.
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under_score

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« Reply #33 on: <02-27-12/1832:27> »
Be sure to reject the worst offenders with a 'flunked the physical' or 'got assigned straight to SWAT, nice NPC, please start again' if you need to drive the point home.

Haha.  Nicely said.   ;D

To be honest, considering everything the Lone Star officer would need in the way of skills to do his job properly, and what he'd need in the way of gear other than what you're giving to survive those he's supposed to apprehend, it would be wiser by far to give your players a full 500 at least.

I would agree if I were expecting the 4 of them to apprehend 5 person shadowrunner teams hiding out deep in Cutter territory.  For the most part, they'll be trying to solve crimes, not stop gang wars.  Sure, they'll be in dangerous situations (following up leads at gang haunts, apprehending 1 or 2 dangerous NPCs on the lam, dealing with a sudden attack from a single summoned spirit), but they won't be asked to infiltrate MCT, hack the system, take out magical surveillance, take down the heavily armed corpsec, and steal the paydata.  That said, I am reconsidering boosting up the build point total (thus the poll at the top and general question on this point), but I won't be starting over 400 for this game. 

The PCs should be special, a cut or twenty above the others in the same profession.

I want them to get to this point, yes.  To start with, I want some NPC detectives to look down their noses at some of the fresh meat, some other officers to really get under the PCs skins so that when they break a big case they can rub it in their rivals' faces.  (I do also plan to give them some straight allies on the force as well, especially as time goes on). 

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Also, they likely would have to pay for any implants themselves.

Actually, from reading the Lone Star book, it sounds like officers often end up with second hand cyberware (pulled from various apprehended perps) that was "supposed" to get destroyed.  Sometimes if officers go under the knife after a particularly bad run-in with some criminal types, they may wake up with 'ware they weren't expecting and may not even want (thanks to the fine print in their contracts).  Sort of a robocop situation but not quite so extreme. 

I'd let them, and strongly encourage them, to spend 200 BP on attributes

That is definitely my plan now that it's been brought up.   :)

The Runners Companion p.23 has useful things to say on the topic of public surveillance which suggests they should only provide intermittent leads to the cops. These systems face 3 critical obstacles:

Ooh, thanks for the tip.  I will check that out after work tonight or tomorrow.  Those obstacles seem very reasonable to me -- should provide some interesting challenges. 

I would prefer having the full 400 BP but with some guidelines about how it can be spent. For example, you could require that the players spend 50 BP on contacts and knowledge skills. These are often neglected in a regular game but would especially helpful for detectives trying to solve a case. You could cap active skills at rating 3 ("Professional", by the book's description) to encourage skill diversification.

Mmm...I like that first idea especially, forcing them to branch out a bit.  Also, for any of them who may have built their characters at 300 before I decide to boost it, that would give an easy way to upgrade without drastically changing the character.  I probably won't cap skill level more than normal though.  If they want to be really good at a thing or two, I don't want to hold them back on that. 

A fun part of Lone Star work could be allowing the players to have access to really big guns...but they not only have to file reports detailing WHY they need the big guns, but an after-run report as to how the weapons were used, did they prove necessary, etc.

Totally.  I don't expect this to be the norm, but I love the idea of them having to gear up extra hard to extract a suspect from a gang-infested, ghoul-ridden portion of the Puyallup Barrens and they can't just bring SWAT with them because of departmental politics.  And if it's a big ticket case, their Lieutenant might speed through the paperwork to get them the biggest guns available. 

-- -- --

As for the legality of SMGs and such.  It seems pretty clear to me that most of those in the 4th ed core book are just Restricted.  Being the people they are, they should have no difficulty getting those guns and holding legit licenses for them.  Some Forbidden items will also be available via Lone Star (on a requisition basis only).  This makes sense to me since both of the Sniper Rifles in the book are rated F.  So the PCs wouldn't be able to (legally) own one, but they could requisition one for specific use.  Granted, they probably wouldn't.  They'd probably just call in SWAT backup for that kind of thing. 

Thanks again for all the advice and feedback so far. 

farothel

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« Reply #34 on: <02-28-12/0400:59> »
A fun part of Lone Star work could be allowing the players to have access to really big guns...but they not only have to file reports detailing WHY they need the big guns, but an after-run report as to how the weapons were used, did they prove necessary, etc.

This is one thing they would definately have to do, fill in reports with their supervisors (not only about what they did with the guns, but what they did in general).  And be on their case if they don't.  So the bureaucracy skill is absolutely necessary.
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Crash_00

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« Reply #35 on: <02-28-12/0422:56> »
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Somehow I don't get the last sentence, sorry. Yes, "P" told you, if you (the player, a normal citizen) had a chance of ever owning one privately and legally. But that doesn't say anything about cops. So how can this determine what cops would be able to use? I have a hard time imagining SWAT teams without assault and sniper rifles, for example.

There were three parts:
Number (ex. 5P-E) that told how much people care.
Permit (ex. 5P-E) that told whether it could be legally permitted by it's presence in the legality code.
Classification (ex. 5P-E) that told how illegal the item was, and also who would be allowed to carry such equipment.

Assault Rifles were classified as G (Automatic Weapons). Typical security forces could be issued them (keep in mind that Lone Star is considered a Security Force that operates as law enforcement) with no problem. Sniper rifles were classified as K (Military Weapons), most SWAT teams don't actually use sniper rifles. Most SWAT teams actually use more common hunting style rifles with high power optics (in fact you can buy one of the most commonly used ones in most Wal-marts).

Things were much harder to get in SR3 due to the legality issues. For example, APDS was considered an Military grade ammunition, you didn't often see people running around with five or six clips of it for every single weapon. It was considerably more powerful mechanically though as well.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #36 on: <02-28-12/0817:17> »
How likely, for liability and publicity reasons, would it be for the special issued weapons to have Biometric safeties and maybe even gun cameras?

Crash_00

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« Reply #37 on: <02-28-12/1103:10> »
I would say very likely to be honest. Most of the weapons would probably be smartgun equipped (which comes with a camera). Afterall, it's not expensive on pistols and only 400 bucks for an external version on larger weapons, and a set of patrol glasses with smartlink and image link on them only runs about 625 also.

I see almost all agencies using biometric locks on their weapons, especially anything capable of autofire or using extremely devastating rounds.

Irian

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« Reply #38 on: <02-28-12/1120:37> »
Agreed. Smartgun is pretty cheap and makes shooting much safer. Wasn't there a system preventing you from shooting at your friends? Perhaps a little bit dangerous, if hacked, but otherwise viable for cops...
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #39 on: <02-28-12/1138:05> »
Wasn't there a system preventing you from shooting at your friends?
Ya, it's called the Police Academy. :)

Seriously, the decision to shoot or not shoot is the cop's, not some fancy gizmo.  The camera and biometric safety makes sure that the gun only fires when the cop decides.  Ultimately, if someone or something is shot with his (specially issued) gun, it is undeniably provable that he meant to shoot it.

"I thought he had a gun."
"Well, let's check the gun camera footage..."

"The perp got ahold of my gun."
"Hmm... Biometrics say there was a good connection to your link when it discharged..."

"A wizard made me do it."
"..."

Bruce

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« Reply #40 on: <02-28-12/1319:46> »
To be fair, smartgun links let you not shoot bystanders, which can arguably be more important than hitting perps.

One of the nightmares of current LEOs is facing down an armed suspect with a crowd of gawkers in the background.  A smartgun link will help in dealing with that situation.

It also lets the upper echelons deny responsibility and place the blame on the officers more easily.  "They had training and the best equipment we could provide; it's not our fault that these rogue officers failed to follow procedures and used an unlinked Panther Cannon on that troll..."

JustADude

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« Reply #41 on: <02-28-12/1325:34> »
To be fair, smartgun links let you not shoot bystanders, which can arguably be more important than hitting perps.

One of the nightmares of current LEOs is facing down an armed suspect with a crowd of gawkers in the background.  A smartgun link will help in dealing with that situation.

It also lets the upper echelons deny responsibility and place the blame on the officers more easily.  "They had training and the best equipment we could provide; it's not our fault that these rogue officers failed to follow procedures and used an unlinked Panther Cannon on that troll..."

That, Bruce, would be "rogue officers", since Panthers come with a Smartgun System stock. I get your point, though.

Also, as far as officer safety goes, there's the Mark 74 Smartlink, which is much pricier but works with TacNet software so you don't shoot anyone on the same TacNet. Probably mostly used by SWAT types, though.
« Last Edit: <02-28-12/1330:08> by JustADude »
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Mirikon

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« Reply #42 on: <02-28-12/1329:29> »
Actually, smartguns do not prevent the problem of civilian casualties. They just make it easier to get on target, reducing the chance of people getting caught in the crossfire. And, smartlinked or not, a shotgun firing shot, or any weapon doing a wide burst or suppressing fire is very likely to get unintended targets in the crossfire.
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JustADude

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« Reply #43 on: <02-28-12/1332:18> »
Actually, smartguns do not prevent the problem of civilian casualties.

I was just referring to the fact that it was an unlinked Panther. The officers in question had to actively disable (or at least ignore) an available aiming assist before taking the shot, which is negligence on their part.
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under_score

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« Reply #44 on: <02-28-12/1346:23> »
It would certainly be wise for them to be outfitted with smartgun systems, smartlinks, the advanced safety system (Arsenal), and Safe Target System (also Arsenal), but considering the cost of each of these, compared with the cost of the guns their being issued, I don't think the Star is going to shell out for it.  I think this is the kind of budget tightening that's giving them a negative image in certain quarters and, in canon, will prevent them from winning the city contract in 2072.  If I were setting the game two years later and with Knight Errant, then I would totally issue them this gear.  In the meantime, it's their job to make Lone Star look good even if their less than complete gear isn't helping any.