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A Clockwork Timebomb?

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Ragnarok

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« Reply #315 on: <01-09-13/1527:38> »
Anything new about the feud?
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Pepsi Jedi

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« Reply #316 on: <03-05-13/0316:24> »
There's a number of things at play with Clockwork, and why people hate him. In no real specific order

1) Clockwork is a hobgoblin. This is a simple statement, untill you look a bit further into it. A) Hobgoblins are a Middle Eastern Meta-varient of the Orc Metatype. This isn't a huge deal for most people, but it -was- a hugge deal for the people in the middle east. The Hobgoblins were by and large slaughtered by most of the middle eastern countries. Entire villages put to the torch. Clockwork himself has made comment about soldiers using kids or babies for target practice, just for kicks.

That's alot of hate towards Hobgoblins, where hobgoblin's are from. With out trying to ruffle too many feathers, the Middle East isn't exactly well known for it's sedate people and open-mindedness when it comes to things that are 'different'.  I forget where the comment was from Clockwork but the indication was he was there, and had hate for those people killing hobgoblins. Not just a "Well on the other side of the world my people are facing horrors" but more of a "I was THERE Man!!" type of thing.

B) Hobgoblins, as a metavariant are distinguished by their physical differences, (( Skinny, green skin, sharp teeth, etc)), and their Psychological traits. Those being two major points. First: They tend to be assholes. Describe it in what ever words you want, but that's the long and short of it and two.. and this is a bit bizarre for a manifestation of a metatype, and not cultural.. but they have a firm view of personal honor, and will go to great extents to avenge any slight they --perceive-- against their personal honor. (( Their view of their honor being their own, not anyone elses))

These are two important factors in Clockwork. The first part, the intense racism against his people at the hand of ... his other people and the whole sale slaughter that was engaged on Hobgoblin's by the Middle east. Part two, that inborn trait of seeing to avenge slights against them.

Now.. clearly Clockwork can't avenge all the slights against hobs that were perpetrated in the middle east, and by all accounts he's not working out of the middle east. So he 'got out'.  He's still got all that hatred from that youth in him. All that hate that's built up in a orc... a hobgoblin meta-variant that we're told, as a biological expression, is driven to avenge slights.

2) We see his instant fear and racism against Technomancers. It could initially appear from a very common source. The "Fear of the unknown." Alot if not most people were afraid of Techno's. Now.. take that innate "Fear of the unknown" add in the "Memory of the Second Crash" and how bad it hurt people. Now add in a huuuge heaping dose of "Hobgoblins by and large, tend to be assholes" then add in "Some people are just bigger assholes than others." ( You know it's true in life. Some people are really nice. Most people are some where in the middle but you all know those few people that you just wanna punch in the throat they're such big jerks). Put Clockwork on that end. Even among Hobgoblins, he's an exceptional jerk. This adds up to alot of emotion that comes pouring out...

Then add in all that racism against his people. It's sad but true. Those that have suffered intense racism often are intensely racist themselves. Often against those who perpetrated the hate upon them but not always. And not logically. Just like abused children often abuse THEIR children, even when they should know better, even when you think they'd be the LAST ones to ever do it, the numbers are shockingly high.

I imagine that this aspect of his personality manifests as a load.. a heaping load of self hate. He has had (( Up till the techno Emergence)) no 'outlet' for all that piled up hate and emotion.

Now here's something new... something scary... something that's linked (( correctly or incorrectly)) To the Crash. Here's something that is 'smaller' than him. That he can fixate on. He's scared, and as we know, there are two main reactions to fear. Fight or flight. Clockwork has chosen Fight. He's taken all that fear and self hate and he's thrown it fully at Technomancers. His innate jerkyness, all the prejudiced that he's been through, all that want to lash out has finally given him a target.

Why did he choose them? Could just be that fear, or it could be the other aspect of hobgoblin biology, that 'revenge slights' aspect. He sees Technomancers getting for free, what he had to work his entire life for. Sees it as an affront. Could be even more base. Hobgoblins are from the middle east. And while there are plenty of middle eastern people OUT SIDE The middle east. The comments that Clock work has dropped indicate he grew up there and fled the murders and stuff there. It could be..... that Clockwork some how sees Technomancers against his 'version' of god. The meshing of man and machine in that way. Again. Not everyone from the Middle East are Religious Zealots. Most are NOT..... but.. there's a reason you think of Religious Zealots when you think of the middle east.

You look at all these aspects and they easily add up to 'who/what' Clockwork is.

I hate the fraker.

He took that fear, he ascribed to it, and he performed some actions. I've read all 22 pages of this thread and even though it's mentioned more than once some people seem to miss it. For a number of pages there, a number of people say something to the extent of "Ok he threatened the kid, but didn't do anything. And everyone is dogpiling on poor Clockwork."

The first thing he did was contract out an op, to try and deliver Netcat to one of the Mega's. To be cut open and vivisected upon. Not just kill. Not even just 'betray'. He purposefully orginised a shadowrun against one of their own. Cut a deal with a 'common enemy'.

He didn't do it for money. He didn't do it for some deep set ideology. he did it for the simple point of overwhelming racism/fear, and wanting her to be captured, tortured, cut open, experimented on, and eventually killed.

For something she had zero control over, and she had committed no crimes against any of the Jackpointers.

That was his first action. People freaked out. He basically just started ranting and raving against Techno's. For a while everyone was scared... ok... he's taking it to extreme. Then he keeps throttling up up up. Then suddenly, he sells one of them out to be vivisected. Based on that fear and hatred.

That was bad. he was unrepentant. At this point he made what I think was the second mistake. His "Hobgoblinish" aspect comes out and he tells them all, "Frak you. I did it. I'm proud of it. I'd do it again. And I'd sell out all you too!"

So not only did he betray one of their own, he tells the rest of them that he'd do them just as easy.

Fastjack doesn't kick him out, because he didn't use Jackpoints resources to do it. And there's no 'rules' against taking runs at one another. This outrages people too.
Then Jack points out that they are a self regulating sort of group. And while taking contracts against one another isn't 'forbidden'.... if you do... and you screw it up..... someone's going to come after you for it... HINT HINT EVERYBODY!!! HINT HINT!! IF YOU WANNA KILL HIM, HINT... HINT.. *Cough*.

Things quite down a bit after that then comes big mistake number three. Not the write up against SlammO. That's just pure Matrix-trolling. When Slamm-O set off that honor/pride thing again Clock work makes his fourth mistake.

The Third mistake was giving detailed description of Netcat's baby. Hair color. Skin. Ears, and eyes. I think Netcat and Slammo would surely look twice at any Hobgoblin coming near their kid, so chances are he didn't look into a stroller or anything. So Clockwork has very likely hired out another shadow run against them, to gather information. Why would he gather information (( All the information on SlammO and apparently the kid))?  Because you're going to sell or use said data.   So Mistake Three was targeting the kid ( And Netcat/SlammO again with shadow action)

Mistake four comes at the end of the File when SlammO basicly laughs and pats Clockwork on the head and goes "Thanks man. Your observations just made me better. Have a nice day!"  Clockwork's Honor/Pride is insulted, the Hobgoblin jerkyness and honor thing kick in and Clockwork threatens to sell the baby to a lab to be cut up and vivisected too. (And through this, either netcat with him, or killing Netcat and SlammO to do it)

So by this point Clockwork has betrayed one of their own to be cut open and dissected, experimented on etc.
FAILED at it
Was called out, and was unrepentant.
While he was being called out, said he'd do it again
Also said he'd betray ANY one of the jackpointers for a cheeseburger
Then through his knowledge of SlammO, and mostly the detailed description of the baby, has tipped his hand that he's hired out another shadow run against Netcat/SlammO/Baby. (Again this is presumed, because Hobgoblin's stand out, and if you see a skinny green shark toothed orc walking towards your baby and a skinny green shark toothed orc had tried to have you cut open and your brain tore out and worse, you're going to take a hell of alot of notice and very likely shoot him before asking to see his ID.))
Lastly, after that run where he's got the description of the baby, has threatened the baby directly (Not just indirectly through the knowledge of the description and how repugnant he found the baby)), saying he'd sell the baby to a lab.

His list of transgressions are pretty deep by this point. He's also targeted, "Some of their own" and more over has gone against a huge human/Meta-human taboo of threatening/harming/targeting children. The kicker is he didn't do this out of anything deserving. he did it souly out of fear and racism. Which people don't tend to like openly.

Sure if you're racist against the same thing THEY are racist against you might sit around and talk about that. but some guy at work, just suddenly going on a hate filled tirade on a racist bint, then out of nowhere starts trying to kill co-workers/ colleges.. .that's something else all together. Add in that the guy is targeting babies, and has openly said he'd do the exact same thing to you...

Well, it's pretty easy to hate the guy. One might understand how you get from A to B to C to D... but 'understanding the motivation' isn't forgiveness for the actions.

He's a bigoted racist jerk that made the mistake of turning on his own, --FAILING--, getting caught. Threatening --everyone--, and then going back, trying again, and then threatening the baby/mascot of the group.

I hope he dies. I hope Netcat does it. I hope it's horrible. And I hope that washes off some of the "Shining image of gleaming light and all that's good" some seem to ascribe to her.

You don't mess with a tiger's cub.

Black

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« Reply #317 on: <03-05-13/0327:30> »
Wow, a lot of thought and emotion went into that post.

Hate or not hate (yet to see even a like..) the character, you have to admire a the fact that this character, perhaps more than any other jackpointer, has really gotten a reaction out of people.  Many RPG characters can be somewhat bland, with a gimic or some mild characterisation.  But they rarely see characters get the level of attention that Clockwork does.
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Xzylvador

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« Reply #318 on: <03-05-13/0711:45> »
Don'tcha just love that character. 22 pages devoted solely to him; and there's plenty written about him in lots of other threads too. Naw, Clockwork's the guy we all love to hate and it'd be sad not to have him around anymore.

That said, as for gathering information on the baby, he doesn't need a shadowrun crew for that not does he need to get close himself. He's a rigger, he shouldn't have much trouble getting a spy drone close enough for some footage... or send a flyer over very high and just use image magnification.
Yeah, sure, NetCat and SlammO! are a techno and a hacker and probably best equipped to deal with drones, but they can't be watching everything, all the time. Especially not with a kid around.

CanRay

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« Reply #319 on: <03-05-13/1016:02> »
Especially as it's shown a few times that Slamm-0! is being a House Dad while Netcat travels the world Shadowrunning.  That might be so that Clockwork doesn't have a reason to target the "Spawn of Slamm-0!", however, or it might have been a choice they made.

Despite a lot of hate Clockwork gets (even in-universe), he is a useful contact and, aside from the one bad deal he did selling out Netcat, he hasn't broken the rules of JackPoint ever.  In fact, it's not completely apparent, but being the local technophile (which is another strike against him personality-wise, he insulates himself from Metahumanity by being around machines all the time, so doesn't develop better social skills) he's the one writing a fair deal, or correcting a good bit, of the tech stuff that's in the e-books/Runner's Black Books.

Contacts don't always have to like you, or you like them, you just need to be able to work together.  And, when it comes down to it, Clockwork is an outright mercenary (Dictionary-sense of the term.).
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Pepsi Jedi

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« Reply #320 on: <03-05-13/1603:46> »
 
That said, as for gathering information on the baby, he doesn't need a shadowrun crew for that not does he need to get close himself.

"Need to be".... not technically, but if you're trying to stay alive, you're going to want a degree of seperation between you and those sorts.


 He's a rigger, he shouldn't have much trouble getting a spy drone close enough for some footage

Not trying to be snarky, but if you're Netcat, and Slammo, and a world class Rigger has already confessed to the betrayal and attempt to turn you over to corps to be vivisected and worse, shows no remorse and says he'd do it again. You're going to take some precautions against drones. Now add in 'mother and father' protectiveness to the equation, and that almost paranoid hypervigilence and preparation is going to be multiplied to an astounding level. Any drone that gets close enough to that baby to try and take a picture, is going to be molten slag. How many sprites do you think Netcat has watching the baby alone, on 24/7 defense? Not to mention both Netcat and SlammO being world class runners. Slammo's parents being world class Runners. While on the surface the ol "He'll just fly a drone by and snap a few pics" is even less likely than Clockwork sneaking close enough himself. 

   ... or send a flyer over very high and just use image magnification.

Again I have doubts on this. If nothing else, Netcat has been on the run for years from Corps trying to extract technomancers to cut up. SlammO for years very clearly signed and defaced corp and other Matrix property. These aren't the sorts of people that are going to take their baby for a walk in the park, uncovered. Not to the point where someone could say "You should see the brat they spawned together. Pale white skin, a shock of red hair, pointy elf ears, and eyes so green you’d swear they were cybereyes. Ugly little bugger."  That's not a high alt fly over just happening to catch a baby in the open to get that sort of detail, where you can say pointy elf ears on a baby or eyes so green you'd swear they were cyber eyes. That's a close up look at the baby from some source.


Yeah, sure, NetCat and SlammO! are a techno and a hacker and probably best equipped to deal with drones, but they can't be watching everything, all the time. Especially not with a kid around.

That's the thing... they really can. Everyone on these websites talks about sleep regulators. But with out even touching that, Netcat could have dedicated sprites watching the baby 24/7. REALLY dedicated overwatch there. Add in a few drones your self and you have every second of the day babysitters. While in your secure local, you don't have to watch every second with your eyes on the baby every milisecond. And when you go out, (( Lets be honest, a techno and super hacker aren't "OUT" that much with a baby in tow)) You quadruple your vigalance and keep an eye out. You use a covered stroller, or keep the baby covered up. (( bullet proof onsies!!))

Now I'm not saying they're perfect. Clearly SOMEONE breached their security SOMEHOW, to the point that clockwork has seen the baby and can describe it in flowery detail. Still it's not just a hand wave "Oh he flew a drone by and got the pic,. No biggie" type thing. :)

Ragnarok

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« Reply #321 on: <03-13-13/0312:27> »
I gotta give you kudos on your brilliant and insightful thoughts on Clockwork's big mistakes, Pepsi Jedi.

You nailed them right on the head.  You did forgot one little, teenie, tiny detail though....  Not only did he pissoff pretty much everyone (probably at least 95% of the Jackpointers), but FastJack (the kids' godfather, for frak's sake).
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Angelone

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« Reply #322 on: <03-14-13/1517:32> »
Someone with an eye recording unit is a better bet for the baby's description. It's doubtful Necat and Slamm-O are going to be blinding random people on the street because they happen to have cybereyes.
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Wildcard

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« Reply #323 on: <03-14-13/1527:29> »
I like Clockwork.

He's one of the few people who doesn't have a hardon for NetCat and her playing house. For that alone, I love him.

Seriously, just kill the kid and the whiny mother already, and I'll be happier.
I was permanently banned from the forums for consistently attacking my fellow posters and trolling the boards. I thought I could get "revenge" on FastJack for being banned by updating my sig to insult him, but all it proved was how much of an idiot I am.

CanRay

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« Reply #324 on: <03-14-13/1753:50> »
What has the kid ever done to you?  It's not like you've had to change his diapers.  :P
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« Reply #325 on: <03-14-13/2018:52> »
What has the kid ever done to you?  It's not like you've had to change his diapers.  :P

I'm just not a fan of being force-fed good guys. I'm not the type to root for the bad guys 'Just Cause',  but to me, NetCat is JarJar Binks, and whoever kills her and her spawn shall win my eternal thanks.
I was permanently banned from the forums for consistently attacking my fellow posters and trolling the boards. I thought I could get "revenge" on FastJack for being banned by updating my sig to insult him, but all it proved was how much of an idiot I am.

CanRay

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« Reply #326 on: <03-14-13/2028:17> »
What has the kid ever done to you?  It's not like you've had to change his diapers.  :P
I'm just not a fan of being force-fed good guys. I'm not the type to root for the bad guys 'Just Cause',  but to me, NetCat is JarJar Binks, and whoever kills her and her spawn shall win my eternal thanks.
She's moralistic, but I'd hardly call her a "Good Guy".

And the kid is being raised by Slamm-0!, which means Netcat is only the Baby-Momma.  Nurture over nature, he'll likely grow up to be an eternal man-child who loves sports.

Or rebel completely and become an honest accountant.
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #327 on: <03-14-13/2102:21> »
What has the kid ever done to you?  It's not like you've had to change his diapers.  :P

I'm just not a fan of being force-fed good guys. I'm not the type to root for the bad guys 'Just Cause',  but to me, NetCat is JarJar Binks, and whoever kills her and her spawn shall win my eternal thanks.

I have a project tied up in the SR4-5 conversion that might change your mind on her. We'll see.

Shadowrun's never been about good guys and bad guys, it's about shadowy grey people and human failings. I want to clean off some of the grubbier people and toss that dirt on the cleaner people. Luckily, I'm not alone in that. :)

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« Reply #328 on: <03-14-13/2135:49> »
What has the kid ever done to you?  It's not like you've had to change his diapers.  :P

I'm just not a fan of being force-fed good guys. I'm not the type to root for the bad guys 'Just Cause',  but to me, NetCat is JarJar Binks, and whoever kills her and her spawn shall win my eternal thanks.

I have a project tied up in the SR4-5 conversion that might change your mind on her. We'll see.

Shadowrun's never been about good guys and bad guys, it's about shadowy grey people and human failings. I want to clean off some of the grubbier people and toss that dirt on the cleaner people. Luckily, I'm not alone in that. :)

That I would support.  Characterisation is not from being all good or all bad, character comes from the grey, the hard decisions and the whys and outcomes.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #329 on: <03-15-13/0108:19> »
Netcat has never been a 'good guy'. But there is a lot of room between 'good guy' and 'total ratfink bastard'. She's in the middle ground, along with most of the other runners on Jackpoint.

Speaking of other runners, reading Storm Front has made me wonder if Puck perhaps still suffering from the backlash of his time in the Rose Garden. He's been drinking the crazy sauce, it seems, which isn't like him.
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