[CitizenJoe]

I might be using non-canonical information here but I think Brackhaven was born an ork but got 'fixed'.  That repair could either be a one time shot, i.e. someone harvested another child's pituitary gland and replaced Brackhaven's with it.  Or it could be an ongoing treatment, i.e. Brackhaven has to continually get hormonal shots to offset his pituitary gland.

IIRC Brackhaven is also kinda racist (Humanis club member or supporter or something).  In that aspect he's racist in that he believes all the metahumans are humans with some sort of defective gene, which can be fixed, but they are too stubborn to allow the fix.

[jonathanc]

There is no such relation in D&D, and most D&D settings have separate societies for different races so they don't have to deal with the problems created by having such vastly different beings trying to interact in a single society.

I haven't played D&D since 2ndEd, but as I recall, half-elves, half-orcs, etc. were STANDARD.  i.e. in D&D they may not have said "Orks are modified humans" but according to D&D humans and orks can interbreed.

D&D never had any pretense of scientific correctness, though; there are half-dragons, half-demons, and half-ogres too....the ability to interbreed does not imply any sort of shared genetic heritage in D&D.

"every ork is..." No.  A 16 year old ork is probably mentally & emotionally close enough to "mature" to make no difference.  A 20 year old ork is in his prime (like an ~30 year old human).  A 25 year old ork is in peak mental form (like a 30-40 year old human) and assuming he's been taking great care of his body, he rocks the house on tactics, forethought, etc.  Because -1 point of Logic should be bought up by now + mature skills.  This is the equivalent of 40 year old human men in real life who are executives at the top of their mental game.  Assuming the ork isn't throwing their life away on booze, cheap women, drugs/BTLs, gang warfare, etc. and is playing the corp ladder game, running the shadows, or living a decent life, by 30 he's lived a pretty full life.  Yeah, a shorter one.  But a 30-yr-old ork runner is still in great shape, still can pulverize a baddie, but now knows when to slot & run rather than try to take bullets just for being bullheaded.

No, a 30-year old ork runner, if we're going by your 2nd ed. fluff, has 5 years to live. He's dying. At most he's got 15...he's roughly equivalent to a man in his 70's.

You think in black-and-whites, not in continuums.  Why is there no middle ground for you?  At 8 years old, she wouldn't have 400BP.  She might be 15.  A little rough around the edges, a tad immature, but not needing a babysitter.  Perhaps just a little less street-smart about when to keep her gun in the holster versus when to shoot.  If one chooses to play her that way, kudos & karma.  But she's capable of whipping your butt, and doesn't need a curfew anymore.

Why would a 15 year old ork have more BP than an 8 year old ork? Again, going by your 2nd edition fluff, but are in the "adult" stage of an ork's life.

[crisses]

No, a 30-year old ork runner, if we're going by your 2nd ed. fluff, has 5 years to live. He's dying. At most he's got 15...he's roughly equivalent to a man in his 70's.


Why would a 15 year old ork have more BP than an 8 year old ork? Again, going by your 2nd edition fluff, but are in the "adult" stage of an ork's life.

Take the tude elsewhere.  Or I simply won't talk to you anymore.

Life expectancy is NOT the same thing as someone being one foot in the grave.  [I love the pituitary gland explanation/theory.]

By the 2/3s theory, a 30 year old Ork would be the equivalent of a 45 year old human.  You must know some pretty decrepit 45 yr old humans... or be pretty darned young yourself.  I'm 42.  And my age isn't going to stop me from kicking butt and taking names if the world crit glitches into an anarchist state....  welcome to the 21st Century, and the baby boomers are unwilling to die decrepit, and more and more elderly are staying in their homes, and us GenXers are going to march in the footsteps of the Baby Boomers who refuse to be marginalized and declared infirm, etc.  Check the news, "old age homes" are becoming a thing of the past -- quickly.

An 8 year old ork would be the equivallent of a 12 year old human.  Just entering the starting stages of puberty.  Why wouldn't they have 400BP?  Because they're just barely entering puberty.  Average Ork puberty is probably age 9 or so...

For every 2 years an ork lives, they're 1 year ahead of a human (at least physically).  At age 2 an ork is ready for preschool games like tag and a tricycle.  At age 4 they're gangly like a 6 year old human, and barely able to ride a beginner bike without training wheels.  At age 6 they're probably 3x their birth length in height (if I remember my human growth/development correctly...), able to double-dutch and other more sophisticated coordination games (shoot hoops, pitch ball reasonably, ride a dirt bike, etc.) like a 9 year old.  And at 8 years old, an ork child is basically a 12 year old human -- gangly, starting to be defiant and rude, starting to bulk up, enormous growth spurts, exceptional awkwardness and even joint pains from rapid growth, more broken bones because of growth plate development, etc.

I look at all this progress in human development as acquiring BP, so I definitely think an 8 year old ork has less BP (see my chart here....  I've given growth some actual thought).  On their 8th birthday, I figure an ork child has 200BP.  My daughter and I are working on child runner-class archetypes based on the growth rates I've published on that page.

[Critias]

Now every ork is either a little kid in a bodybuilder's body, an adult in the body of a decrepit senior citizen, or someone who has maybe a year or so to go before they start losing voluntary control of their bowels. Also, any young person dating an ork that appears to be their own age is a pedophile.

That ork gunslinger in the core book? By your fluff, she's like...8. Fatima, who buys it in Ghost Cartels, would have likely been hobbling through that firefight with a walker, given the super-fast aging fluff. It's just ridiculous. Yes, that's my line. 8 year old bodybuilders with cybernetics are my line. That's not a fantasy game anymore, that's a retarded fantasy game.

And here is that excluded middle and the exaggeration, again.  Why is it you're hell-bent on ignoring Orks who are in their physical prime, somewhere between 15-30 -- which, I daresay, is probably the age of most Shadowrun characters anyways! -- and you keep on insisting they're all on one extreme end of the spectrum or the other?  And then, having ignored most of the spectrum, you keep on using terms like "retarded" to explain the spectrum?

You no longer seem to be discussing this in good faith.

[jonathanc]

Now every ork is either a little kid in a bodybuilder's body, an adult in the body of a decrepit senior citizen, or someone who has maybe a year or so to go before they start losing voluntary control of their bowels. Also, any young person dating an ork that appears to be their own age is a pedophile.

That ork gunslinger in the core book? By your fluff, she's like...8. Fatima, who buys it in Ghost Cartels, would have likely been hobbling through that firefight with a walker, given the super-fast aging fluff. It's just ridiculous. Yes, that's my line. 8 year old bodybuilders with cybernetics are my line. That's not a fantasy game anymore, that's a retarded fantasy game.

And here is that excluded middle and the exaggeration, again.  Why is it you're hell-bent on ignoring Orks who are in their physical prime, somewhere between 15-30 -- which, I daresay, is probably the age of most Shadowrun characters anyways! -- and you keep on insisting they're all on one extreme end of the spectrum or the other?  And then, having ignored most of the spectrum, you keep on using terms like "retarded" to explain the spectrum?

You no longer seem to be discussing this in good faith.

If the average Ork dies around 35, then 30 is not their "physical prime". Lets be generous and give them 15-20. That's a pretty small window, and it makes the idea of an Ork hermetic mage nearly impossible, given the time required for hermetic study. By the time they graduated from magic university they'd be eating at hometown buffet and wearing Depends.

I have no interest in arguing this perpetually. We've already agreed to disagree on what we run in our own games. If you want to argue that Orks age rapidly to adulthood, and remain hale and healthy until magically dropping dead without actually aging past their prime, that's your choice.

[CitizenJoe]

If the average Ork dies around 35, then 30 is not their "physical prime". Lets be generous and give them 15-20. That's a pretty small window, and it makes the idea of an Ork hermetic mage nearly impossible, given the time required for hermetic study. By the time they graduated from magic university they'd be eating at hometown buffet and wearing Depends.

This assumes that the ork's lifecycle is bell curve shaped.  They might just get better and better until their heart can't take it, at which point it explodes, killing them instantly.

[jonathanc]

If the average Ork dies around 35, then 30 is not their "physical prime". Lets be generous and give them 15-20. That's a pretty small window, and it makes the idea of an Ork hermetic mage nearly impossible, given the time required for hermetic study. By the time they graduated from magic university they'd be eating at hometown buffet and wearing Depends.

This assumes that the ork's lifecycle is bell curve shaped.  They might just get better and better until their heart can't take it, at which point it explodes, killing them instantly.

The same sources cited for Orks' lifespans being due to rapid aging (2nd edition-era books) also contain examples of 30-ish orks who look look wrinkled and haggard, IIRC.

[Angelone]

In second ed orcs weren't known for their good looks even a young orc probably looked wrinkled and haggard. Good looking orcs have been a disturbing 4th ed phenomenon.

[jonathanc]

In second ed orcs weren't known for their good looks even a young orc probably looked wrinkled and haggard. Good looking orcs have been a disturbing 4th ed phenomenon.

There's a difference between lumby and wrinkled, though. Previous editions had orks looking like regular fantasy orcs in modern clothes; 4th edition has orks that look like a human variant species. 4th edition also introduced 'smarter' orcs, as their mental penalties are considerably less crippling than they were in, say, 3rd edition.

[crisses]

The same sources cited for Orks' lifespans being due to rapid aging (2nd edition-era books) also contain examples of 30-ish orks who look look wrinkled and haggard, IIRC.

Yes, Allan Bronson -- the Ork Underground leader (again, DNA/DOA), who was present during the Night of Rage (had recently goblinized, so about 8-9 years old I think). The adventure says he was 28 years old in DNA/DOA and considered "Middle Aged" (they say he's around a 60 year old human biologically -- I think that is an exaggeration).  One of the reasons for Carol Owen's research was to help metahumanity with the "problems" of goblinization.

However, their math is off.  If the night of rage is 2022, and Alan was a minimum of 8 when he goblinized in 2021; he was born by 2013, making him at least 36-7, not 28, in 2050 (DNA/DOA).  Allan is minimum of 36, could be as old as 38 or 40 -- much more in-line than him being "a 28-year-old wrinkled old man".  So make that a typo.  The typo is understandable, since the Night of Rage was 28 years ago, they just didn't catch the error and I haven't found an online errata for the older books.

[jonathanc]

It's a typo, but it's quite possible that their intent was still for him to be 28 and looking like a 60-year-old.

[crisses]

It's a typo, but it's quite possible that their intent was still for him to be 28 and looking like a 60-year-old.

Huh?  Well, whatever, dude.  I agreed with you that it WAS in the book, pulled out a reference, even took out a calculator and checked the math.  Yes, if he were 28 and looked 60 it would be troublesome.  But he should be 38 and look about 57, if that's any consolation.  Maybe the stress of being Mayor has gotten to him.  Figure he's in charge of all these people living or dying, security is a nightmare...  Lucky for them the hydroponics is working out, or they would be starving.

Now, if you were thinking that Orks were 28 and looked 60, then you were working from reasonably-derived misinformation.  People are saying that orks would be viable characters until at-least their mid-to-late-30s.  And that's around Mr. Bronson's real age -- not his typo'd age.

If you want to continue to kick all orks over the age of 15 and under the age of 35 out of your campaigns, then you will need to compensate in your version of the Shadowrun Universe such that <15 is mature or >35 is youthful and sprightly.

[FastJack]

So, by all of this logic then, dwarves shouldn't be allowed to run until they reach 30-40 years old and elves shouldn't be out of diapers until they are 15?

[jonathanc]

So, by all of this logic then, dwarves shouldn't be allowed to run until they reach 30-40 years old and elves shouldn't be out of diapers until they are 15?

This is precisely why I prefer to assume an even rate of aging among metahumans; they all go through puberty at the same age, they're all in highschool at the same time, etc.

Dwarves and Elves just remain in their prime for a longer period of time, and Orks/Trolls have similar lifeplans to humans, but have greater odds of dying in their 30's and 40's due to lifestyle problems (poor diet, street violence, lack of medical care, etc.)

[crisses]

So, by all of this logic then, dwarves shouldn't be allowed to run until they reach 30-40 years old and elves shouldn't be out of diapers until they are 15?

Dwarves & Elves probably age within human norms but keep their telomeres longer.  In my writeup on Shadowbrats, I did reason that they'd go through puberty on the later-but-still-plausibly-normal-for-human side (i.e. late bloomers, age 15-16).  Puberty for orks at 8-9 years old is also not outside of modern human norms.