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Ally spirits & realistic form, could they pose as armor & with which rating?

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Mirikon

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« Reply #15 on: <01-15-12/0949:59> »
Any time you hear someone say the equivalent of "it doesn't technically say this", 99% of the time it's rules-lawyering.
Quoted for truth.
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JustADude

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« Reply #16 on: <01-15-12/0958:37> »
Immunity to Normal Weapons is a side effect of Materialization, not a power in and of itself, at least for spirits.

There's a reason it's not listed separately in their stat block.

Any time you hear someone say the equivalent of "it doesn't technically say this", 99% of the time it's rules-lawyering.

No, I'm not saying "it doesn't technically say this", I'm saying that "the rules DO say this", as in there is a positive confirmation in the form of multiple entries in several different books saying that Spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons and that is is, indeed, an actual Power.


Quote
SR4A, p186, under Spirit Combat.
"Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 295), giving them Armor equal to twice their Force against all attacks."

Runner's Companion, p92, under Free Spirit Powers
"Spirits also have Immunity to Normal Weapons."

Street Magic, p100, under the Hybrid Form
"A hybrid form spirit has Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 288, SR4), but loses the ability to assume an  Astral  Form  (p.  287,  SR4)."

Street Magic, p100 again, under Flesh Form
" A  flesh  form  spirit  is  a  dual-natured creature (p. 287, SR4), has Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 288, SR4), any of the vessel’s natural and augmented abilities, and also gains the powers of Realistic Form (p. 102) and Aura Masking (p. 98)."

Street Magic, p102, under Possession and Vessels
"When a spirit possesses a vessel, the combined  being  that  results  is  dual-natured,  has Immunity  to  Normal  Weapons  (p. 289,  SR4), and boasts all of the spirit’s powers and skills."

Got any rules references that contradict that?

I do believe I've just provided five separate instances in three different books backing my point, including one explicitly referencing that all Spirits have it without any context of being in the physical plane, and another explicitly calling Immunity to Weapons a power... you know, if the fact that Immunity is listed as a Power in both SR4A and Running Wild isn't enough for you.
« Last Edit: <01-15-12/1022:27> by JustADude »
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #17 on: <01-15-12/1023:51> »
I'll clarify.

Standard spirits do not have Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power.

I am not talking about Ally spirits or possession/inhabitation spirits. Those are their own special deal. That knocks out the last four of your rules quotes.

Standard spirits DO have Materialization, which has the side effect of Immunity to Normal Weapons. I read the "Physical spirits have the power of ITNW" as a futher clarification making that effect of being physically materialized explicit, not as giving them an additional separate power apart from Materialization.

Therefore, a Great Form of a 'standard' spirit with Endowment cannot endow others with Immunity to Normal Weapons, because it doesn't have that power.

The best it can do, possibly is endow a mage with Materialization. While so endowed, I suppose an astrally projecting mage could Materialize, and would as a side effect of Materialization have INTW while doing so.


-k

JustADude

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« Reply #18 on: <01-15-12/1050:13> »
I'll clarify.

And I'll explain why you're wrong.

Standard spirits do not have Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power.

Says who?

"Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons..." is pretty damn explicit, and you have yet to actually give me a citation that counters that reference.

I am not talking about Ally spirits or possession/inhabitation spirits. Those are their own special deal. That knocks out the last four of your rules quotes.

Sorry, no dice buddy, that only gets rid of three of them.

The second citation, the one from Runner's Companion, has NOTHING to do with Ally Spirits, Inhabitation, OR Possession. It's a quote from the section regarding standard Powers for all Spirits from the Free Spirit section.

Standard spirits DO have Materialization, which has the side effect of Immunity to Normal Weapons. I read the "Physical spirits have the power of ITNW" as a futher clarification making that effect of being physically materialized explicit, not as giving them an additional separate power apart from Materialization.

I'm sorry but, once more, how does "spirits have the power" equal "spirits don't have the power"? You're quoting a string of text and then trying to argue the exact opposite of what you just quoted and hoping I won't notice.

The statement clearly means, using a simple Plain English reading, that a Spirit that is physical, aka has Possessed, Materialized, or Inhabited, has the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons. It may, or may, not have that power at any other time, but we do know that it has the power at any point in time it is relevant.

This is then clarified in Runner's Companion, which explicitly states that Spirits always have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons.

And yes, Immunity to Normal Weapons is a POWER. It is explicitly listed under Powers in SR4A, p295, and again under Paranormal Powers in Running Wild, p212.

If they have the effect, they have the Power, just like for a Critter to be Sapient they have to have the Power named Sapience. If they ever lose the power of Sapience they lose the effect.

Therefore, a Great Form of a 'standard' spirit with Endowment cannot endow others with Immunity to Normal Weapons, because it doesn't have that power.

Once more, you have yet to provide any actual evidence from primary source material to back up your unfounded assertion that this is so.

The best it can do, possibly is endow a mage with Materialization. While so endowed, I suppose an astrally projecting mage could Materialize, and would as a side effect of Materialization have INTW while doing so.

Wow... really? And that's LESS cheesy?

Dude, all you're doing is saying "I'm right because I say so," with a lot of words, and trying to spin-doctor facts into meaning the opposite of what they state.

EDIT: I'm always happy to admit when I'm wrong... when I'm wrong. You, however, have yet to counter any of my points, even with your very thinly veiled attempt to change the playing field by suddenly eliminating everything but Materialization Spirits after I lobbed a bunch of citations at you that blew your argument out of the water.

EDIT REDUX: I'm happy to play this game as long as you want, but the ORIGINAL ASSERTION was made ABOUT Ally spirits, which you have now eliminated from the equation because you thought they endangered your house of cards. Congratulations, you just made this entire debate irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'm going to bed now; if you come up with anything that has some actual substance to it, feel free to try again.
« Last Edit: <01-15-12/1109:32> by JustADude »
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CanRay

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« Reply #19 on: <01-15-12/1056:21> »
I'd be happy with a motorcycle or sports car Ally Spirit that I'd only have to "Fuel" with the occasional Long Island Iced Tea.  ;D
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Critias

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« Reply #20 on: <01-15-12/1122:33> »
In reply to the last handful of posts...I'll just leave this here:
The long and short of it is that you (and your GM) have access to the same actual rules we do.  From here on out, you're going to be getting interpretations of those rules, and personal opinions of what we'd likely allow at our own games.

 ;)

CanRay

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« Reply #21 on: <01-15-12/1125:32> »
I'll correct myself here.

I'D BE HAPPY TO BE ABLE TO PLAY!

I'm going back to bed now.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #22 on: <01-15-12/1131:26> »
First off, I apologize, I meant to say "free spirit" rather than "ally spirit" as one of the things I'm not discussing.


I am not saying that Immunity to Normal Weapons is not a listed power.

I am saying that Immunity to Normal Weapons as provided by Materialization is not a separate power in and of itself.

You can have an entity with Immunity to Normal Weapons listed in the stat block. If that entity also has Endowment, it could indeed endow folks with ITNW.

You can also one with Materialization in it's stat block. In this case, Materialization provides ITNW as a part of it's effects, but that provided ITNW is not a separate power on it's own and is inherent to the other power.

An analogy is that some creatures have listed Armor ratings. Other creatures wear physical armor, which provides the creature with an Armor Rating. However in the second case, the Armor Rating is inherent to the worn armor, not to the creature, and if you take that worn armor away the Armor Rating also goes away.

A creature with Endowment and Immunity to Normal Weapons can endow another creature with Immunity to Normal Weapons.

A creature with Endowment and Materialization can endow another creature with Materialization. It CANNOT endow just ITNW, as it doesn't have ITNW, it has Materialization.

Free Spirits, Inhabitation/Possession, have their own specific special rules.

Regular bog-standard summoned Spirits of Man, Earth, Water, Guardian, Task, etc spirits have Immunity to Normal Weapon as a consequence of being physically materialized, not as a separate power apart form Materialization.

You'll note that the quote from RC says "Physical spirits", not just "spirits". Meaning that they only have the effect while they are materialized physically. I read that as intending to explicitly spell out this effect that Materialization provides, not as intending to provide summoned spirits with a separate power in and of itself.

I say "intent" because most rules-lawyering revolves around rules-as-written versus rules-as-intended. I do not at all believe that the developers intended to provide ITNW seperately from Materialization, and as such do not believe it can be treated as a separate power for any reason, at least in the specific case of Materialization. The ITNW power was left off their stat blocks for a reason, not because it was an oversight, and the RC quote applies only to physical spirits, reinforcing my belief that it intends to mean they have ITNW only as a part of Materialization.

Non-inhabiting Ally Spirits can only be built with the powers of your summonable spirits, and they do NOT have ITNW as a separate discrete power. They can have Materialization, which provides ITNW, but they cannot have ITNW as a discrete power, nor can they endow it separately from Materialization.


« Last Edit: <01-15-12/1208:01> by KarmaInferno »

Mason

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« Reply #23 on: <01-15-12/1345:53> »
Hi chummers,

I have a question regarding the power "realistic form" for ally spirits.
when the summoner chooses the forms he can choose any physical creature or object and [a spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object's normal functionality]
so far so good.
Now what if the summoners chooses the form to be a full military armor or any armor at all (form fitting body armor for example),
1. could he wear it?
2. would he be encumbered?
3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity?
4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be?
5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit?

what if he chooses the ally spirit to materialize in the form of a big airplane, could he transport the whole team of shadowrunners, what are the (size) limits?

any (official) help or opinions are welcome.

best regards
Hellfre

In my game, i allowed this. The character wanted to be more anime-like, so it ended up as a suit of half angelic, half "dark angelic" armor with wings which allowed him to fly and a big-az claw which used the spirit's melee attack as it's pool. It also pointed a big target sign on him that said "shoot at me, shoot at me!" Especially to any mages that assense him and see he is wrapped in a spirit.

The best way to handle it IMO is to just treat the armoring as actually being possessed by the spirit, and describe the effects of that to include spectral armoring. If you really want to go the materialization route like i did, I treat all attacks at the character as attacks at the spirit unless it is a called shot. If it is a called shot, the spirit doesn't help, as that was the point. Otherwise, the character dodges and the spirit soaks. With focused fire from teams of high level goons, the spirit ends up disrupted and now the armor is gone for 28 days - Force.

Also, the spirit has to focus on the form covering the entire living being except the face, so it is at a consistent -2 distraction penalty. (IMO)
« Last Edit: <01-15-12/1347:29> by Mason »

JustADude

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« Reply #24 on: <01-16-12/0547:07> »
You can also one with Materialization in it's stat block. In this case, Materialization provides ITNW as a part of it's effects, but that provided ITNW is not a separate power on it's own and is inherent to the other power.

An analogy is that some creatures have listed Armor ratings. Other creatures wear physical armor, which provides the creature with an Armor Rating. However in the second case, the Armor Rating is inherent to the worn armor, not to the creature, and if you take that worn armor away the Armor Rating also goes away.

...

You'll note that the quote from RC says "Physical spirits", not just "spirits". Meaning that they only have the effect while they are materialized physically. I read that as intending to explicitly spell out this effect that Materialization provides, not as intending to provide summoned spirits with a separate power in and of itself.

You're actually making my case for me. When you wear armor, you add the armor rating to your character until you take it off, just like you  add the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons to a Spirit while it's Materialized.

The power Endowment doesn't say "it's potential powers", or "it's inherent powers", just "its powers." Like I said, you can play it however you want at YOUR table, but according to a precise and literal reading of the rules, Endowment only requires that the spirit have the power when the ability is used, NOT that it be one of their natural powers.

As for "not providing the power itself", that's total bullshit. Complete, utter, smells like a cow's ass bullshit. It says in every instance that it provides Immunity to Normal Weapons, not "an effect equivalent to Immunity to Normal Weapons", but the power itself.

One could even find grounds, on a more liberal interpretation of the section on Free Spirits (since the sentence in question says Spirits, not Free Spirits or Physical Spirits), to say that all spirits always have the power, and It's not listed on individual Spirit stat-blocks for the same reason Troll NPCS don't mention their +1/+1 armor or +1 Reach. Aka, it's a universal assumption that is so standard it doesn't bear repeating.

I say "intent" because most rules-lawyering revolves around rules-as-written versus rules-as-intended. I do not at all believe that the developers intended to provide ITNW seperately from Materialization, and as such do not believe it can be treated as a separate power for any reason, at least in the specific case of Materialization. The ITNW power was left off their stat blocks for a reason, not because it was an oversight, and the RC quote applies only to physical spirits, reinforcing my belief that it intends to mean they have ITNW only as a part of Materialization.

Okay, were you the one that wrote the rules in question? Do you actually work for CGL? If no to both, then your version of "the Rules As Intended" is no more valuable than mine. RAI is all about individual interpretations of what the developer means and is, therefore, worthless when talking about an abstract situation that doesn't involve a specific table.

What you call "Rules-lawyering", I call a precise and accurate interpretation of the mechanics of the game that is unfettered by personal sentiment and backed up by several direct, canonical references and MY interpretation of the Rules As Indented. And, honestly, I actually prefer the idea that all spirits always have ItNW, it just only comes into play when they're Materialized, but there's not enough RAW to really support that idea.

What you call "Rules As Intended" I call someone being a... well, better not go there. Suffice to say once again that I see your arguments as based on nothing but you taking your personal little-duck feelings and trying to throw them out onto the world at large as Absolute Truth, backed by nothing more than an attempt at twisting and re-writing of the basic, fundamental mechanics of the game (i.e. to get an effect you have to have the Power on your character at the time) to try to justify your negation bias.

Non-inhabiting Ally Spirits can only be built with the powers of your summonable spirits, and they do NOT have ITNW as a separate discrete power. They can have Materialization, which provides ITNW, but they cannot have ITNW as a discrete power, nor can they endow it separately from Materialization.

Okay then, lets look at Materialization:
Quote
Materialization
Type: P  •  Action: Complex  •  Range: Self  •  Duration: Sustained
Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into the material world, thus allowing them to interact with physical beings. When materialized, critters may affect physical targets. Additionally, materialized critters gain Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Okay, so what's the actual effect of Materialization? I believe the key phrase is "projecting themselves into the material world". Therefore, all PCs, NPCs, and Critters that are already IN the material world and can interact with physical objects... especially the entities that are Dual Natured by default... are materialized by their very nature as physical beings. Give them the power of Materialization and they automatically get ItNW because they're now, effectively, Physical Spirits. No muss, no fuss, no need to Astrally Project.

THAT is rules lawyering.

At this point I suggest we let the subject drop unless you have anything more to add other than more of the same regurgitation of statements not supported in any way by the books, because frankly I'm running out of ways to explain to you that 2+2 = 4 whether a special little snowflake wants it to be 5 or not, and I don't feel like repeating myself.
« Last Edit: <01-16-12/1003:33> by JustADude »
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redwolf

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« Reply #25 on: <01-16-12/0625:00> »
I'd be happy with a motorcycle or sports car Ally Spirit that I'd only have to "Fuel" with the occasional Long Island Iced Tea.  ;D
+1 for the talon name dropping  8)
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The Jake

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« Reply #26 on: <01-16-12/0647:05> »
I think it applies (JustADude is correct), but I'm not the GM (currently).

I think its nitpicky to say that ITNW isn't a power just because it isn't in the spirit's power list yet covered under Materialisation and about a 100 paragraphs of flavor text that say they do.

Is it really that broken when you look at the raft of other powers one can bestow using Endowment?

YMMV.

- J.
Frag you guys, I'm going home.

CanRay

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« Reply #27 on: <01-16-12/1215:58> »
I'd be happy with a motorcycle or sports car Ally Spirit that I'd only have to "Fuel" with the occasional Long Island Iced Tea.  ;D
+1 for the talon name dropping  8)
Hey, it's a good idea.  Very green.  ;D
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #28 on: <01-16-12/1913:16> »
I think it applies (JustADude is correct), but I'm not the GM (currently).

I think its nitpicky to say that ITNW isn't a power just because it isn't in the spirit's power list yet covered under Materialisation and about a 100 paragraphs of flavor text that say they do.

Is it really that broken when you look at the raft of other powers one can bestow using Endowment?

YMMV.

- J.

It's not about being broken or not. It's about design.

I tend to look at things not as a GM or as a player. I tend to look at them as a designer.

I happen to like Defined Meanings. They make things clear. If you set a specific meaning of a term, and use that definition uniformly, there's much less confusion.

So, yeah, it bothers me when I see someone use Endowment to work on something not on the spirit's specific list of powers, to allow any old mention of the word "power".

If you have a specific Defined Meaning of a word like "Power", it doesn't matter if the word is used offhandedly elsewhere in the book. In this specific case, I take Endowment to mean "powers on a creature's specific list".

If you take "power" to mean any possible mention of the word, well, it allows for tons of possible loopholes. Design-wise, that's messy. It bothers me.

Yes, many things in Shadowrun annoy me for this reason. Like "what is an initiative enhancer" - ask five Shadowrun players or GMs and you'll likely get six answers. The rules themselves vary on the meaning depending on which book or even which section of a book you read. Messy.

I simply don't view "ITNW as provided by Materialization" as being the same as having full on ITNW as a discrete power. I see powers "A" and "B". "B" provides effects that resemble "A" but is not actually "A". If a critter has "B" on his powers list, he can Endow "B", but not just "A". If a critter wants to endow just "A", he needs to have "A" on his powers list.

Finally, I really don't care for the snide personal insults a couple of other posters have worked into their responses. (not from you)  I do admit to calling a particular tactic cheesy and rules-lawyering, but that's leveled at the tactic, not at the person. I don't know most folks here personally. So I don't cast any aspersions at their character. I only know what they post. I only address what they post.


-k

JustADude

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« Reply #29 on: <01-16-12/2245:03> »

*SNIP*

I happen to like Defined Meanings. They make things clear. If you set a specific meaning of a term, and use that definition uniformly, there's much less confusion.

So, yeah, it bothers me when I see someone use Endowment to work on something not on the spirit's specific list of powers, to allow any old mention of the word "power".

*SNIP*

Design-wise, that's messy. It bothers me.

Yes, many things in Shadowrun annoy me for this reason.

*SNIP*

I simply don't view "ITNW as provided by Materialization" as being the same as having full on ITNW as a discrete power. I see powers "A" and "B". "B" provides effects that resemble "A" but is not actually "A". If a critter has "B" on his powers list, he can Endow "B", but not just "A". If a critter wants to endow just "A", he needs to have "A" on his powers list.

*SNIP*

Okay, like I said, you're inserting your personal distaste for the way parts of the game work into your evaluation of the situation. I get that, and that's perfectly natural. It's human nature to try and find ways to make the world work the way you think it should.

When I look at the RAW, and the fact that every single type and kind of spirit that can show up in the Physical World has Immunity to Normal Weapons when it's here, I interpret the RAI as "All spirits are supposed to have Immunity to Normal Weapons, we just derped up and decided to put it in the each and every entry on how they get to the physical world instead of their stat-blocks, because we're silly people and like to make things complicated."

Unfortunately, as I said earlier, trying to rely on the INTENTION of the rules for a universal interpretation is sloppy in and of itself, even sloppier than bad writing in the first place. That's like saying killing someone is okay because you just intended to scare him and your finger slipped. Endowment does not actually SAY "one of the powers on a creature's stat-block, including optional powers that have been chosen for that particular spirit", it just says "one of the creature's powers." Materialize, as well as the rules on Spirit Combat, however do specifically say they get "Immunity to Normal Weapons", not "an effect that resembles Immunity to Normal Weapons."

Logically speaking, it's "When A is active, B is temporarily added to the creature's Powers," and, under that interpretation, the spirit can Endow ItNW, but only when materialized, and it has to stay material the whole time the effect is active.

And as for the snide commentary... buddy, I've been asking you ever since this started to give me any evidence from anywhere in the actual source material that backs up your interpretation. You have not, and pretty much cannot, because it doesn't exist. Yet you keep insisting that you're right, in the face of all logical argument. So pardon me for finding your behavior worthy of insult.
« Last Edit: <01-16-12/2343:33> by JustADude »
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
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"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
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