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War! is banned with prejudice. No appologies.

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TheWanderingJewels

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« Reply #165 on: <12-08-11/1127:15> »
I use the hardware and the rules with little comment. As my players don't really go out into the sharp end  on large scale it's not much of an issue.

The might occasionaly seea full on battle rifle, but that's about it
Tech dreams of organic toys
And I'm runnin' out on the edge
Soft screams of the rockerboys
Echoing through my head

--Miracle Of Sound, City Of Night

UmaroVI

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« Reply #166 on: <12-08-11/1204:40> »
Alright, since Karma responded to that seriously (and I agree with his points here), I'll actually give a serious response instead of a poop metaphor.

I mostly GM, much more than I play. And I don't like things in rules that make me, as a GM, have to spend a lot of time dicking around with "how does this actually work" or that make me have to spend a lot of time and effort balancing PCs. When I play Shadowrun, it's because I want to play a game about people who meet in theme bars to pull off heists, not because I want to figure out how much ceiling space is needed for the high trajectory of a compound bow. Rules that are incomplete as-written and require me to figure out the rest of it myself piss me off. I can and do tweak rules, but I really prefer that there BE default rules for me to tweak. And I especially hate rules that are vaguely or inconsistently written, because then sometimes I will read it one way and a player will read it another way, and then we have to waste time figuring out what the rules actually say.

As for why Catalyst should care and why I feel I have the "right" to complain: if they made more good quality products (and had more timely errata for the existing produts), I would buy more of their stuff, run more games (and thus get more other people to buy stuff), and be more likely to recommend purchasing their stuff to other people. It's not like the only options are "Play shadowrun 24/7, it is the best game ever" and "never play Shadowrun again." I can also do what I do now, which is buy some but not all of their books, and when people ask me if they should buy newer Catalyst stuff, give them my honest opinion (which, for much of it, is largely negative).

FastJack

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« Reply #167 on: <12-08-11/1341:32> »
And for every UmaroVI, there's a GM like myself that thinks the books have been terrific so far, has no problems with a player looking through War! and helping to fit that into the game.

Now that we're clear that everyone has different tastes and styles, maybe we can agree to disagree on items, move along and stop the needless beating of a dead horse?

Jaffer

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« Reply #168 on: <12-09-11/0040:04> »
move along and stop the needless beating of a dead horse?

If hammerhead arrows do S damage, they beat something.
If you use MRSI with hammerhead arrows on a horse...

I'll stop now before someone wastes a Thor shot on me.

CanRay

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« Reply #169 on: <12-09-11/0124:05> »
*Looks up from charbroiling the dead horse*  It'll be ready in about an hour.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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rasmusnicolaj

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« Reply #170 on: <12-09-11/0211:44> »
You wanna eat the sweet horse?


Rasmus
Deplore killings made in the name of religion. Can't it just be for fun?

Xzylvador

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« Reply #171 on: <12-09-11/0220:30> »
Ack!

Thread closed!

CanRay

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« Reply #172 on: <12-09-11/0858:26> »
I warned ya, I warned yas all!
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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FastJack

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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #174 on: <12-09-11/1130:25> »
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

CanRay

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« Reply #175 on: <12-09-11/1531:41> »
Flippin' emo ponies...
Hair isn't black enough for Emo.  And she hasn't cut herself so she can feel.   :P
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Kontact

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« Reply #176 on: <12-11-11/2349:57> »
The first, and still most popular, HMG was the Browning M-2, the venerable Ma Deuce. The Barrett M107A1, the modern equivalent of the Barrett Model 121 (Arsenal, p27), fires the exact same round as the Browning M-2, with the same Effective Range and very similar muzzle velocities, yet not a single HMG has anything other than DV 7, AP -3, while the Barret M121 has DV 9 AP-4.


Really, I'd think that it's more of a problem with the terminology they use.  The HMG in SR is nothing like an M2.

Could you imagine an M2 on a gyro harness being fired by a gunner walking around on foot?  Helllll no.  That beast is a "Vehicle-mounted only" weapon for sure.  It weighs like 85 lbs unloaded.  Madness.

Based on the DV codes of hunting and battle rifles, I'd see an SR "heavy machine gun" as something like the M60 that shoots .308 Winchester.  (Even though an M60 is considered a LMG IRL.)
« Last Edit: <12-12-11/0003:07> by Kontact »

Critias

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« Reply #177 on: <12-12-11/0015:40> »
Could you imagine an M2 on a gyro harness being fired by a gunner walking around on foot?  Helllll no.  That beast is a "Vehicle-mounted only" weapon for sure.  It weighs like 85 lbs unloaded.  Madness.
In Shadowrun?  Depends entirely on the "gunner" in question.   8)

JustADude

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« Reply #178 on: <12-12-11/0034:01> »
Based on the DV codes of hunting and battle rifles, I'd see an SR "heavy machine gun" as something like the M60 that shoots .308 Winchester.  (Even though an M60 is considered a LMG IRL.)

Agreed.

Personally, I think Crash_00's house-rule from one of the things he's put up in the Toolbox is just about a perfect fix: Boost all MMGs to 7DV and HMGs to 8DV. Also let LMGs share ammo with Assault Rifles, MMGs with Battle Rifles (and Sport Rifles), and HMGs with Sniper Rifles.
« Last Edit: <12-12-11/0035:35> by JustADude »
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Crash_00

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« Reply #179 on: <12-12-11/0106:54> »
Quote
Could you imagine an M2 on a gyro harness being fired by a gunner walking around on foot?  Helllll no.  That beast is a "Vehicle-mounted only" weapon for sure.  It weighs like 85 lbs unloaded.  Madness.

I used to go to gun shows with my grandpa as a kid and they had "performers" on Saturdays at the one near Little Rock. I've actually seen a guy fire one from the hip before and stay relatively on target. He did a bit where he would shoot a target through an old trashed out car.

That said, there is also the lightweight version of the M2 that weighs in closer to 60 lbs., but HMGs aren't designed to be fired from the standing position. There is a reason they are usually seen with Bipods or Tripods permanently attached. They're designed to be set up and braced before firing, but can be hauled around by infantry. After all, the biggest of the Barret M-82A1s comes in at over 30 lbs and is closer to 40 when loaded and that's without bipod, optics, etc. that you usually see them equipped with. In Vietnam,  often one person would carry the gun and another would carry the two belts of ammo.

At one point in time, the long distance kill record was held by Hathcock who sniped an enemy at 2,500 yards with an M2 (with telescoping sights of course). Of course, he was from Little Rock also.  ;D

I think the Dev's just need to hire more gun nuts for development. A couple gun nuts to come up with the gun stats and a third dev armed with a nerf bat to smack them around in the name of balance should work I think.  8)