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War! is banned with prejudice. No appologies.

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Sengir

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« Reply #150 on: <12-07-11/1753:07> »
And the ridiculous can (and does) happen all the time, even in real life. Add in magic, ware, and the like, and it is even worse.
So, which of these points which are part of the setting would you use to explain the capabilities of MRSI?

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Clearly you need to reread the rules again.
Clearly you need to read postings before replying to them. I wasn't suggesting to run the MRSI on a cheap commlink. What I said was that if the hacker and rigger already have the gear to run a R5 program, it makes no sense to buy a dedicated 'link just for running it.


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No, it wouldn't be. You could get away with it once, maybe twice, before you became VERY popular with law enforcement and corpsec. Not to mention government black bag teams that would love to know how you got your hands on that software.
Repeat after me: There is nothing extraordinary about a 14 F item. Everybody can have it, will have it, and will use it.

Mirikon

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« Reply #151 on: <12-07-11/1952:11> »
So, which of these points which are part of the setting would you use to explain the capabilities of MRSI?
I don't need to explain them. I have no problem with them. With even a little GM involvement, the capabilities of MRSI are a nonissue. They are something nice, and in a niche role they can be quite powerful.

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Clearly you need to read postings before replying to them. I wasn't suggesting to run the MRSI on a cheap commlink. What I said was that if the hacker and rigger already have the gear to run a R5 program, it makes no sense to buy a dedicated 'link just for running it.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about a troll adept or some such. Now we're talking about a hacker or rigger shooting the bow?

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Repeat after me: There is nothing extraordinary about a 14 F item. Everybody can have it, will have it, and will use it.

Yes, yes. Anyone can get a machine gun, too. We're not talking about the availability here, but with how it is used. If you cause massive havoc, I don't care if it is with a little old Predator IV, they ARE going to hunt you down. The more spectacular the feat, the more likely you are to get hunted down like a dog.  There's a reason why people don't walk down the street with an Ingram White Knight under their arm, or why people don't walk along with a Steel Lynx to get their laundry. Those kinds of things tend to draw the notice of law enforcement. And when you're a professional criminal, you want to avoid the notice of law enforcement.
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Crash_00

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« Reply #152 on: <12-07-11/2337:33> »
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I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about a troll adept or some such. Now we're talking about a hacker or rigger shooting the bow?

I believe his point is pretty much, the hacker or rigger can slave the Troll adept's bow to their commlink, problem solved. To my knowledge, there isn't anything keeping someone from slapping optimization 2 on MRSI and running it on a rating 3 system.

CanRay

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« Reply #153 on: <12-07-11/2344:22> »
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I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about a troll adept or some such. Now we're talking about a hacker or rigger shooting the bow?
I believe his point is pretty much, the hacker or rigger can slave the Troll adept's bow to their commlink, problem solved. To my knowledge, there isn't anything keeping someone from slapping optimization 2 on MRSI and running it on a rating 3 system.
Other than the GM's Pimp Hand?  :P

Sorry, it came up constantly last night during Airship Pirates Character Creation...  When one guy has a Steampunk Version of a Pip-Boy, and another is a Automation made from Brass and Wood, it got kind of ridiculous.  ;D
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Crash_00

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« Reply #154 on: <12-07-11/2346:15> »
I guess my group was more brutal. The version I always heard was "other than the GM's pimp hand and twelve damn stiches."

Pretty much the look in my new GM's eyes when I...uhm...informed him that with the current CC rules he was giving, the mage could show up with a bonded force 10 Power focus at the start.

JustADude

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« Reply #155 on: <12-08-11/0007:04> »
I guess my group was more brutal. The version I always heard was "other than the GM's pimp hand and twelve damn stiches."

Pretty much the look in my new GM's eyes when I...uhm...informed him that with the current CC rules he was giving, the mage could show up with a bonded force 10 Power focus at the start.

Hey, if she wants to spend all her Nuyen on the Power Focus, that's up to her, but she'll rather stand out being buck-naked and without a commlink.  ;D
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CanRay

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« Reply #156 on: <12-08-11/0011:01> »
I guess my group was more brutal. The version I always heard was "other than the GM's pimp hand and twelve damn stiches."

Pretty much the look in my new GM's eyes when I...uhm...informed him that with the current CC rules he was giving, the mage could show up with a bonded force 10 Power focus at the start.
Hey, if she wants to spend all her Nuyen on the Power Focus, that's up to her, but she'll rather stand out being buck-naked and without a commlink.  ;D
Actually, as the Pip-Lad (As the Player currently calls the device) has a riveted and magnetic backing on the fingerless glove, and the Automata in the game are, again, made of Brass and Wood, I'm sure stitches would be involved, along with a concussion.  ;D

As for standing out...  Well, maybe she's a Lesbian Elf Stripper Magician working her way to get clothing so she can strip out of them later?  (Her previous items having been torn up from a rather riotous crowd who stormed the stage before the bouncers could respond?).
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Crash_00

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« Reply #157 on: <12-08-11/0018:01> »
Sadly, I've actually seen that exact character with almost the same description of why they had no gear show up in a game one time.

JustADude

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« Reply #158 on: <12-08-11/0100:21> »
Besides, we all know that's not how big your Focus is, it's what you do with it.  ;)

*ducks incoming projectiles*

Seriously, though, without at least a Health Sustaining Focus at Force 3-4, she'll be either way short on IPs or taking a -2 penalty for having to sustain Improved Reflexes, and she's never struck me as the kind of person who would ever play a character willing to use enough force to end the fight with one spell.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #159 on: <12-08-11/0448:07> »
What keeps coming up here is that War! is badly written, that its rules are broken, or not there, or ...  The issue it keeps boiling down to is that it requires GM intervention, to prevent a PC from having something 'horribly broken' at game start.

Gosh.

Isn't that more-or-less the GM's first job, judging the characters being brought into the game?  Aren't there a thousand-and-one ways of creating a 'broken' character, of rules-raping, of acquiring something terribly beyond of the pale, that the GM has to smack the player on the side of their head and say, 'No.  Behave.'?  Isn't 'everything passing through this space is slowed to 1m/s, thus easily stopped' enough for you, you need 'oh, it takes away all but 1 DV'?  Would you then complain about that rule, and say it was broken??  (As a note -- I didn't say that 'the spell goes away, and even if you were stopped the energy returns.'  I very clearly said that you could affect objects as their energy is inside the AoE.  If that means you land in a crouch, stand, and walk away at 1m/s, that's what happens.  That won't stop the 10-ton 5-meter-wide rock you were under from crushing you at a casual 1m/s -- a perceptually slow and agonizing death -- but if there's no 10-ton rock on top of you, I guess you're walking away from that parachute-less HALO entry, eh?)

Taken independently, every single part of every single game in existence is broken.  My god, if pawns haven't moved, and something advances through a particular space, they can go ahead and take that piece even though it isn't actually there !!  That's broken !!  Oh, wait -- en passant takes place in a much larger game.  Kings can move two spaces and jump a piece -- broken !! -- if neither king nor rook have moved yet.  This isn't chess; there are more than six different kinds of pieces on the board.  How much worse must it be in a game with a thousand pieces, ten thousand rules, and a hundred thousand players -- not to mention a million scenarios through which to run those rules and interpret them differently?

APDS was 'broken'.  Dikote was 'broken'.  Bioware was 'broken'.  Initiation was 'broken'.  All these things are broken if taken separately.  It is the GM's job to make sure they are not taken separately, that use of them happens inside the game world, and that ICA=ICC.  For those less in the grip of text-based gaming, that means that In-Character Actions Have In-Character Consequences.  If you go around 'killing' your local 'tanks' -- which I would kind of presume means a Knight-Errant Ares MobMaster or some other heavy mob-quelling Barrens-dominating heavily-armored vehicle-of-destruction -- with a couple of precisely placed MRSI-planned AV-headed arrows, then great, congratulations.  You probably could have done the same thing with one shot of a remote-controlled AV missile -- you know, 1/10th the cost, probably get it faster (20F instead of 14F, but interval time is 1 day, not 2 days), 16P -6 AP vs. vehicles -- but sure, it's easier to carry the bow and arrows and program.  Which somehow is going to make it more dangerous.  More broken.

I guess.  If you say so.

I don't.  My view is -- always has been, always will be -- that bringing military gear to a street fight will get you talked about (that's 'Notoriety' and 'Public Awareness', for the most part).  That bringing out the Huge Guns will focus the authorities' attention on you, and you'll shoot straight to Public Enemy #6* and get Detective Tosh Athack and ADA
Dana Oaks hot and heavy on your heels.  Or their equivalent in your games.  That doing this sort of thing is distinctive, and doing it more than twice is going to earn you, without you getting any points for it, what's called
Distinctive Style.

Every clarification I've made, every explanation I've written, has been shot down with essentially the same whinging -- there isn't a rule for it, or I don't like the rules, or the rule is 'broken' because ba ba ba ba.  Every single argument I've seen against it so far has taken the rules in War! independent of the game world, and thereby have been nonsensical, recursive, and self-defeating, made particularly more so with the claim that 'bad rules aren't made good (or even okay) by saying the GM should fix it'.  I don't say that; I say that the GM has control over the game world.  And that every rule is broken if taken independently.

Ban War!.  You don't need our permission.  But stop attacking it, apply to be a freelancer, write well enough to be one, and then write something better than it.  Something that corrects it.  Or go play another game.



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rasmusnicolaj

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« Reply #160 on: <12-08-11/0505:57> »
+1 to the Wyrm.

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Mirikon

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« Reply #161 on: <12-08-11/0731:04> »
Preach on, Brother Wyrm!
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Sengir

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« Reply #162 on: <12-08-11/0906:33> »
I don't need to explain them. I have no problem with them. With even a little GM involvement, the capabilities of MRSI are a nonissue.
Sure, and with Adobe Distiller and a basic spell-checking software the nonexistent editing of W! can be improved, a big black marker quickly solves the Auschwitz insanity, a good GM will immediately houserule that carriers are not submersible...
None of that changes the fact that these points as presented in the book are total crap. Heck, comparing products to W! results in a warning on these boards, that should tell you something...

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I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about a troll adept or some such. Now we're talking about a hacker or rigger shooting the bow?
Whoa, you should be glad that Mirikon didn't see that. he would have flamed you to hell and back calling you a total noob who needs to read the ...ing rules...

It makes no difference whether them commlink running the MRSI program is 50 cm or 50 m away from the weapon, hence our archer can simply have another team member with better matrix gear run the program for him.



And since the good old "do it better if you want to criticize something" pseudo-argument came up again: It doesn't take Spielberg to criticize a bad movie.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #163 on: <12-08-11/0946:14> »
There are some people who, if CGL took a dump in a box and sold it as a rules supplement, would defend it and say that the GM doesn't actually have to smear shit all over the gaming table, and that the GM's first job is to decide what does and doesn't belong in their game. If you don't like it, you should poop in a box yourself, and I hope you eat enough fiber to do a better job than the Noble Freelancers who Never Do a Bad Job with Anything.

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #164 on: <12-08-11/1007:33> »
Wyrm, on reflection I think part of the problem is that the two sides are arguing about two different things.

The pro-War side is mostly discussing the usability of the book in gaming.

The anti-War side is mostly discussing specifically the quality of writing (and editing, since it's the editor's job to catch a lot of this stuff).

They are, really, two separate issues.

My personal point of view, as I touched on before, is from the position of another writer, not that of a GM or player. I tend to look at pretty much any rules set through that lens. Writing rules for RPGs is more or less technical writing, much like writing an instruction manual.

The fluff portions are exempt from this, but the rules mechanics need to be precise and comprehensive. The writer cannot assume that the reader "just gets it" and only imply or make off-handed comments about something. If it's mentioned and it is likely to have a game mechanic impact, it needs to be addressed in game mechanic terms. I'm also a big fan of Defined Terms, since using them cuts down on repeating rules, and it's much more precise - for example, if "Enhancement Boosters" had a specific defined meaning, a lot of questions about IP stacking would never be needed.

The new style in Spy Games kinda bothers me because of this - a lot of rules items have their mechanics mixed in the fluff section, with brief or even non-existent coverage in the corresponding rules block. Aside from having to flip back and forth just to get all the info on a single item, the fluff section is by nature imprecise and not comprehensive, since it's written from an in-universe viewpoint. That is supposed to be why there is an attached rules block - the fluff tells you how it fits into the setting, the rules block tells you how it fits into the game.




-k

 

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