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Slow Spell--whoa!

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CanRay

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« Reply #30 on: <09-20-11/2019:13> »
Thus the Availability Ratings, and the fact that if you're spotted on the street with that stuff in any civilized area the Metroplex/National Guard is being rolled out.

That said, I have my MPUV, I'm happy.  ;D
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

Teknodragon

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« Reply #31 on: <09-21-11/0558:09> »
Just popping back into the thread I started to say thanks to y'all-- I want the folks who GM in my gaming group to read this before we play next. Being that I want to play fair at the table, I'm willing to switch it out for a spell of their approval if they feel it is too disruptive to gameplay, both in-game and OOC.

The OOC aspect is where last week, we lost at least half an hour of time at the table as everyone tried to get their head around what the spell can/cannot do, what the characters can/cannot do while inside the area. I foresee a lot of times like that in the future; further, I can get most of the utility of Slow from using either Physical Barrier and/or Levitate.

Admittedly, part of why the combat went so well is our gunslinger (thanks, Sehmerus!) remembered Step One: Geek the Mage.

Lastly, as some of you have noted, Slow isn't an 'I win!' button. Unless you have mojo or lasers, you need to be outside the area of effect to be directly effective in combat. Spirits can attack the mage astrally, and our table determined that Air and Fire spirits would not be affected by the spell. A big enough Earth or Water elemental could pop the bubble, same with any moving car. An Ork or Troll in full battle-rattle per hit moving inside the spell's area will also pop it. The more mobile a team wants to be, the less useful the spell is in that situation. Show it off too many times, and it becomes a bit of a signature... and certain groups will be Very Interested as to why and how the mage got hold of a military-grade spell. A final thought is Bull's recent commentary on mind-affecting spells: Throwing around high-power magic, especially applying it to unwilling targets, has Serious Consequences. With Shadowrun, as always, you Can. But, Should you?
Life is short, the night is long, and we still have ammo.

sehmerus

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« Reply #32 on: <09-21-11/1430:23> »
Well Tek, I think That you dont need to give up the spell, i think the 30 minutes we spent on the discussion is because it was used for the first time in that manner, I dont think it would take up that much time if used again as long as we are all on the same page as what it can and cant do. And even so Your not the kinda player that plays things to abuse them. So I personally wouldnt care if you kept it. (as long as its not become a routine Cheese *every mission* format. and with you  I dont think it would be.  The fact that your willing to change it even tho its a legit LEGAL missions spell. says to me that you care enouph about game balance than to have to give it up, Besides there is other uses of the spell besides "slowing bullets" as of wich you have done.



Sehmerus (Vic the GSA)

Gleeful

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« Reply #33 on: <09-21-11/2257:23> »
As the GM in this game, first, I hadn't come up against slow used in this fashion before, so part is my fault. I also seem to have amazingly creative players, and I hatehatehate penalizing them if they actually come up with a really effing Good Plan for the situation. In this particular case, that slow spell, with the successes, was sheer genius. The 30 minutes we spent hashing it out was mostly me (and our other primary gm) making sure it actually was written the way it was, to work the way it did. Once we decided it was(the module in this case specifically said the damage from the explosion was caused by shrapnel from the car exploding, which would clearly be stopped by the Slow spell, I let them have their victory.

Buuuuuut, that particular situation wasn't very fluid, and future episode will require the party to either move(thus leaving the spell behind) or my enemies will have laser pistols as well. Or both. My first reaction was indeed that the spell was broken, but there're plenty of ways to either break it, or have other things happen. Spirits, large moving things, backup.

Plus. Now my mages get to use it. :)

Chaemera

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« Reply #34 on: <09-22-11/2326:03> »
I find the spell balances fairly quickly once you enforce Object Resistance. I treat this as a house rule b/c most manipulation spells ignore Object Resistance.

For bulltes this means you need at least 3 hits (manufactured high-tech objects and materials, including alloys, which I would consider 2070's era bullets).

Regarding explosions, I would probably require the spell to overcome the OR of the explosive device (if in the AoE) or add it's force to the character's damage resistance test (if outside).

Just because I like physics, let's look at the reality of the spell vs a high-explosive. You have to worry about the mass of the air being moved. Minimally, a high-explosive is going to create a pressure wave at 2000 m/s, which means that total air flow through a cubic meter would be approximately 2000 cubic meters of air, when you use the particle model of physics.

At sea level, air has a density of approximately 1.2 kg per cubic meter. This means that, at nominal pressure and temperature pre-explosion, and at minimum HE velocity of detonation, 2400 kg of air will be entering the area of your slow spell per square meter of surface area of spell facing the explosion per second. This means that, minimally, you'll need 36 hits to sustain the spell for one combat round, assuming nothing but the explosion is moving through the area.

And this is the overly-simplified physics. I'm not going to mess around with calculating out the pressure changes caused both by the explosion and by the slow spell. Now do you understand why FastJack uses hand-wavium to say that concussive/HE explosives ignore a Slow spell?

I am not looking at the wave model for this case because the wave model says the particles remain (relatively) stationary and the energy is transferred molecule to molecule, in this case, Slow wouldn't work as written, since what's "moving" is a force, not an array of particles. The particle-wave model of physics would just make game-play impossible at the table, so don't bother, it's a game, have fun.
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Lanlaorn

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« Reply #35 on: <09-23-11/0003:26> »
How do you possibly get 2,000 cubic meters of air crossing through square meter of surface area of the Slow spell, a bomb 500 meters down a 2m x 2m mineshaft?

Considering that the bomb will blow outward radially and only a very small area of that sphere will intersect the Shadowrunners, you're just not getting that much air. And even if you did channel the blast this is a ridiculous volume of air you're talking about, you realize the DV for High Explosive drops off at -2/m? Even in the above mineshaft example unless there's a nuke down there, they don't need the slow spell at all.

It doesn't matter that the air is moving at 2,000 m/s, if there isn't 2,000 cubic meters of air directly between the team and the bomb it's not going to happen.

« Last Edit: <09-23-11/0013:28> by Lanlaorn »

sehmerus

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« Reply #36 on: <09-23-11/0140:53> »
*Stares Blankly at the Math and Physics People*   

Sichr

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« Reply #37 on: <09-23-11/0525:53> »
Think too hard about the physics of slow and your head hurts. For example, photons should get slowed down too.

Then we would have to fight in the darkness  :o

Chaemera

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« Reply #38 on: <09-23-11/0647:08> »
How do you possibly get 2,000 cubic meters of air crossing through square meter of surface area of the Slow spell, a bomb 500 meters down a 2m x 2m mineshaft?

You don't actually get that much air moving, this is why physicists walked away from purely particle based systems in favor of wave and wave-particle systems.

As previously mentioned, the wave system would have the kinetic energy shift from molecule to molecule with little/no movement of the individual molecule, so the Slow spell would be useless against an explosion (but could slow the shrapnel and debris created by it) and the wave-particle (most true-to-life) system would require far too much math and crunch to determine whether or not a particular explosion was successfully affected to use at the table.

Therefore, for the purpose of discussing the physics involved with Slow + Explosion, I used the now-defunct pure-particle model of physics. This had the side benefit of addressing most of the commentary here regarding the physics of explosions (buckets of water, ocean waves, etc) since most of these were presented from a "they're made of particles" argument.

If you really wanted to work at that wave-particle system, you could simplify it by looking at each cubic meter of air that the explosion would (normally) impact inside the Slow spell and count it as 1.2 kg towards the limit (so if you have 10 cubic meters that would be inside the explosion, you have 12 kg towards your limit).

Of course, if you're worrying this much about physics, you'll also ask "what happens the the energy-mass relationship when the Slow spell reduces the speed of an object from 2000 m/s to 1 m/s". Well, since the fundamental and quantum forces are maintained normally (per the slow spell), then the energy of the 1999 m/s would be converted, via Einstein's Relativity, into mass, so again, the spell will fall apart under almost all circumstances as the sudden loss of kinetic energy must be addressed by a sudden increase in potential energy (mass, since you aren't changing any other characteristic of the energy equations) in order to ensure that the fundamental forces are not affected by the Slow spell.

Simply put, do not argue any form of physics regarding the Slow spell, as it is a rabbit-hole of half-statements and misunderstandings of physics. Either figure out it's intention (not hard to do) and re-write the spell without references to physics, or ignore the spell out-right.
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Carmody

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« Reply #39 on: <09-23-11/0715:24> »
Of course, if you're worrying this much about physics, you'll also ask "what happens the the energy-mass relationship when the Slow spell reduces the speed of an object from 2000 m/s to 1 m/s". Well, since the fundamental and quantum forces are maintained normally (per the slow spell), then the energy of the 1999 m/s would be converted, via Einstein's Relativity, into mass,
Or it can be converted to heat ... with again far too much calculation to understand what amount of heat it represents.
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Sichr

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« Reply #40 on: <09-23-11/0738:39> »
So many physics...

       Bullet weight/type                          Velocity                                  Energy
400 gr (26 g) Solid Brass          3,250 ft/s (990 m/s)    9,381 ft·lbf (12,719 J)

Anyone able to calculate weight on impact?

EDIT: IMO we are talking about tons, maybe kilotons. So Against 50.cal sniper rifle is this spell useless.
« Last Edit: <09-23-11/0804:46> by Sichr »

kirk

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« Reply #41 on: <09-23-11/0807:10> »
So many physics...

       Bullet weight/type                          Velocity                                  Energy
400 gr (26 g) Solid Brass          3,250 ft/s (990 m/s)    9,381 ft·lbf (12,719 J)

Anyone able to calculate weight on impact?

EDIT: IMO we are talking about tons, maybe kilotons. So Against 50.cal sniper rifle is this spell useless.
Define "weight".

Valnar

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« Reply #42 on: <09-23-11/0809:31> »
The force on impact depends on the time it takes for the moving object to be stopped. The faster the slow spell stops the bullets, the more force will be released/absorbed/whatever. If it happens immediately (absolutely no time at all) it would actually be an unlimited amount of force. This is another reason why using physics on the slow spell would be a bad idea ;D

Lanlaorn

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« Reply #43 on: <09-23-11/1149:47> »
How do you possibly get 2,000 cubic meters of air crossing through square meter of surface area of the Slow spell, a bomb 500 meters down a 2m x 2m mineshaft?

You don't actually get that much air moving, this is why physicists walked away from purely particle based systems in favor of wave and wave-particle systems.

As previously mentioned, the wave system would have the kinetic energy shift from molecule to molecule with little/no movement of the individual molecule, so the Slow spell would be useless against an explosion (but could slow the shrapnel and debris created by it) and the wave-particle (most true-to-life) system would require far too much math and crunch to determine whether or not a particular explosion was successfully affected to use at the table.

Therefore, for the purpose of discussing the physics involved with Slow + Explosion, I used the now-defunct pure-particle model of physics. This had the side benefit of addressing most of the commentary here regarding the physics of explosions (buckets of water, ocean waves, etc) since most of these were presented from a "they're made of particles" argument.

If you really wanted to work at that wave-particle system, you could simplify it by looking at each cubic meter of air that the explosion would (normally) impact inside the Slow spell and count it as 1.2 kg towards the limit (so if you have 10 cubic meters that would be inside the explosion, you have 12 kg towards your limit).

Of course, if you're worrying this much about physics, you'll also ask "what happens the the energy-mass relationship when the Slow spell reduces the speed of an object from 2000 m/s to 1 m/s". Well, since the fundamental and quantum forces are maintained normally (per the slow spell), then the energy of the 1999 m/s would be converted, via Einstein's Relativity, into mass, so again, the spell will fall apart under almost all circumstances as the sudden loss of kinetic energy must be addressed by a sudden increase in potential energy (mass, since you aren't changing any other characteristic of the energy equations) in order to ensure that the fundamental forces are not affected by the Slow spell.

Simply put, do not argue any form of physics regarding the Slow spell, as it is a rabbit-hole of half-statements and misunderstandings of physics. Either figure out it's intention (not hard to do) and re-write the spell without references to physics, or ignore the spell out-right.

Lol no, you need to actually defend your position. Blast waves (unsurprisingly) are waves, with all the classic properties, they can diffract, refract and even reflect (chunky salsa rule). But the wave actually creates a huge difference in pressure that actually compresses air and it actually creates very strong 'wind". Have you ever actually studied shockwaves? You realize in a High Explosive device not only is there flow, it's supersonic.

In the first place, you're wrong that in "the wave system" there would be little to no movement of the molecules, I invite you to observe that "in reality" there ACTUALLY IS pressure driven flow.  A thought experiment: I release some colored smoke by a bomb, then detonate the explosive, does the smoke remain in place spreading only by diffusion while the wave of the explosion "ripples" through it, or does it ACTUALLY get blown away?  And you realize that after the explosion there is a negative pressure effect that causes air to rush BACK right? How do you explain that with your half made up nonsense? And you HAVE felt the wind on your face at some point right?

Also? The math for this is actually quite easy, especially for open air hemispherical point source explosions.

Second,
Quote
If you really wanted to work at that wave-particle system, you could simplify it by looking at each cubic meter of air that the explosion would (normally) impact inside the Slow spell and count it as 1.2 kg towards the limit (so if you have 10 cubic meters that would be inside the explosion, you have 12 kg towards your limit).

This would be a step in the right direction since you're not creating massive imaginary volumes of air to add thousands of kilograms to your math, but it's still silly. Use the actual air between the shadowrunnerss and the explosion. Although I hope this demonstrates how ridiculous your previous math was, 12 kg vs. 2400 kg, lol!

Quote
Of course, if you're worrying this much about physics, you'll also ask "what happens the the energy-mass relationship when the Slow spell reduces the speed of an object from 2000 m/s to 1 m/s". Well, since the fundamental and quantum forces are maintained normally (per the slow spell), then the energy of the 1999 m/s would be converted, via Einstein's Relativity, into mass, so again, the spell will fall apart under almost all circumstances as the sudden loss of kinetic energy must be addressed by a sudden increase in potential energy (mass, since you aren't changing any other characteristic of the energy equations) in order to ensure that the fundamental forces are not affected by the Slow spell.

No, just no. In the first place, it's magic. In other spells it creates energy from nothing, it's not exactly crazy to allow the reverse. Second, I invite you to actually do the math, it's stupidly easy.

KE = 1/2 Mair V^2, E = Mcreated C^2.
Mcreated C^2 = 1/2 Mair V^2
Mcreated = (Mair V^2)/ (2 C^2) = (1.2 * (1999^2) / (2 * 300000000^2) = (0.6 * 399601) / 90000000000000000 kilograms

I'm not even going to reach for my calculator to finish that, I trust that the enormous difference in order of magnitude is apparent? I mean it should have been obvious the second you started thinking about energy-mass conversion from something as paltry as that kinetic energy but oh well.


To the people with the bullet talk: The spell is limited by mass not "weight".

kirk

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« Reply #44 on: <09-23-11/1213:04> »
The simplest solution is to ban the spell.

I admit to liking in principle Chaemera's solution of requiring an object resistance test. The problem with that solution is that my little GM mind would insist on equitability. There are a host of spells that presently just affect physical objects without a test: Physical barrier, magic fingers. and levitate just to name a few. OTOH, GM handwave...

While it may be due to the bias of it being my idea, I like reducing speed by 50 per combat turn to a minimum of 1. I can arbitrarily see this applying negative mods to DV for bullets, and RAW lets me change damage if the vehicle hits at a slower speed. The problem is that FAW says it also affects explosions. If I'm far enough away for the spell to do more than one combat turn of reduction it's either a VERY large explosion or it so far it doesn't matter anyway.  Perhaps worse, it seems meant to replicate a parachute deployment. Parachutes reduce falling velocity of personnel from ~70 mps to ~2 mps in far less than a combat  turn. That's not 50 per combat turn, it's (closer to) 200 per combat turn.

This in turn means another modification/interpretation appears. It is simple: reduces speed by 200 (minimum 1). It echoes the 200 kg limit, though it's not changed by adding force points.

In the end, unless the designers errata the rule we're left with three choices. Accept it as is, ignore it, or house-rule it. Except for when we play at a convention, your interpretation does not ruin my game -- if it's fun for you, you win. The reverse is also true; if my way is fun for me, I win.

As to the discussions of physics and so forth... shapechange? You accept shapechange and the physics of this cause you to gag? oooookay.

 

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