[UmaroVI]

How much essence loss are you taking? You might be able to do better as a Technomancer - if you can lose 1 or less essence, you can still have resonance 5 and thus be able to thread empathy software 10, which is +4, then you lose Kinesics, but you're still up by 1. You can get everything else, swapping your mentor spirit for the paragon Idoru.

[Mäx]

How much essence loss are you taking? You might be able to do better as a Technomancer - if you can lose 1 or less essence, you can still have resonance 5 and thus be able to thread empathy software 10, which is +4, then you lose Kinesics, but you're still up by 1. You can get everything else, swapping your mentor spirit for the paragon Idoru.

You also lose the improved social ability 3 so your down by 2 dice.
Also i'm not sure you can get sensor software as a complex form.

But yes, techno-pornomancer is an option you can go for making a face too, but you wont be much good in the traditional duties of a techno when you sacrife a big part of your recources for being a face.(technos are allready short on points in chargen)
.But as lomg as everyone understand that your making face for the team, it should matter much.

[UmaroVI]

Oh right, I forgot about Improved Ability. You can indeed thread empathy software, but that still leaves the technomancer down 2 dice.

[kirk]

I'll point out for reference that a technomancer with CF "empathy" learned at 6 and 6 resonance can thread it to 12 then add the rating of a sprite (notionally 6) for 18. Add Idoru for a paragon and that's 20 for Con before attributes, skills, and other tricks are applied.

[Solomon]

I keep seeing this but I dont understand how people can think you can thread or learn a complex form of empathy software. When the book describes complex forms, it specifically talks about complex forms existing to manipulate the digital matrix. When it describes empathy software it talks about analyzing the behavioral patterns of the individual that has nothing to do with digital information. It doesnt make any kind of logical sense to say a complex form can replicate analysis of non digital information based on human psychology and behavior patterns.

[kirk]

I keep seeing this but I dont understand how people can think you can thread or learn a complex form of empathy software. When the book describes complex forms, it specifically talks about complex forms existing to manipulate the digital matrix. When it describes empathy software it talks about analyzing the behavioral patterns of the individual that has nothing to do with digital information. It doesnt make any kind of logical sense to say a complex form can replicate analysis of non digital information based on human psychology and behavior patterns.

I use this as the basis:

For simplicity, complex forms are identified by the programs their
functions mimic. For each program there is an equivalent complex
form, with the exception of Biofeedback Filter, which is part of the
living persona. Some programs have different effects when used as a
complex form, which are noted in the program’s description. Agents,
IC, and autosofts may not be learned or used by technomancers. -- SR4A 239

Sensor software is software that takes data the sensors provide and analyze it in a fashion that makes it of effective use for the player. Is there a CF that does the same thing?

Smartlink
Although the technomancer’s physiology and wireless capabilities
enable him to “talk” to smartlinked devices (e.g., exchange data
with a weapon and display it accordingly) without any additional
devices, he normally lacks the hard-coded tactical software to translate
the information into visual cues that simplify target recognition,
aiming, and shooting in combat. However, technomancers can simply
create this program by learning it as a permanent complex form,
or improvise the necessary algorithms by threading. -- UN 136

Since the TM can CF smartlink, sensor software seems valid.

[Solomon]

The difference is that is communication between a smartlinked wireless gun and the technomancer. He is reading the wireless signals and using a complex form to interpret those signals. Sensor software is reading the behavior and physical signals of an analog source, namely a person. Plus the targeting data from a smartgun is pretty cut and dried compared to the thousands of variations in human emotional responses.  It seems very different to me and sort of a massive stretch beyond the intent and scope of a technomancer and his or her ability to interact with the machine and matrix world. Not only that but in Unwired it specifically addresses complex forms and sensor software and talks about needing access to databases and special sensors to make anything like empathy software work. Since technomancers have nobuilt in extra memory where would the massive database information be?

[UmaroVI]

I'll point out for reference that a technomancer with CF "empathy" learned at 6 and 6 resonance can thread it to 12 then add the rating of a sprite (notionally 6) for 18. Add Idoru for a paragon and that's 20 for Con before attributes, skills, and other tricks are applied.

Sprites don't give you a bonus; they increase the rating, so it's still capped by Resonance x2

[kirk]

I'll point out for reference that a technomancer with CF "empathy" learned at 6 and 6 resonance can thread it to 12 then add the rating of a sprite (notionally 6) for 18. Add Idoru for a paragon and that's 20 for Con before attributes, skills, and other tricks are applied.

Sprites don't give you a bonus; they increase the rating, so it's still capped by Resonance x2

Ah, misremembered that. Thank you. (darnit).

[kirk]

ok, so we are at 49 dice.  Not 50 dice but still the current blue ribbon winner.  That lets you buy 12 hits before edge, buy the way.  Probably enough.

Can't let the ribbon go by me, so here's the latest pornomancer build
Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)

3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51

The first option does reguier the help of the teams mage, but even the second one gets over 50 

Curious if you can put that brain to use to 'counter' what you just did with an opposing roll to see through that. xD

Start by Insisting that meetings happen on the matrix, and go VR yourself or use voice manipulation software. That strips glamour, both pheromones, kinesics, vocal range enhancer, emotitoy, and symbiosis: remove  22 points. That takes this build to "only" 29 to 31.

[kirk]

The difference is that is communication between a smartlinked wireless gun and the technomancer. He is reading the wireless signals and using a complex form to interpret those signals. Sensor software is reading the behavior and physical signals of an analog source, namely a person. Plus the targeting data from a smartgun is pretty cut and dried compared to the thousands of variations in human emotional responses.  It seems very different to me and sort of a massive stretch beyond the intent and scope of a technomancer and his or her ability to interact with the machine and matrix world. Not only that but in Unwired it specifically addresses complex forms and sensor software and talks about needing access to databases and special sensors to make anything like empathy software work. Since technomancers have nobuilt in extra memory where would the massive database information be?

Let me counter most of that by quoting what you mention in your penultimate sentence. Key statement emphasized by me:

In theory, a technomancer can adapt any piece of
software by mimicking the program with a complex
form that he shapes (by threading or learning) based
on the original. Since a number of programs such as
Sensor software (p. 60, Arsenal) or tacsofts (p. 125) require
connections to sensors, databases, and/or other
auxiliary data, a technomancer can only use complex
forms based on that software if he has a connection
to such sensors, databases, or auxiliary components.
Individual gamemasters may choose whether to allow
this in their games.

I'm not going to quote the descriptions of all the sensor software from Arsenal, just the empathy. However I'll note that only two have a stated requirement for databases (weapon watcher and wildlife spotter). The others that mention databases say it's AN option, to match an existing sample against an accessed database.  However, empathy says:

Empathy software is designed for use with
standard video/trideo cameras, carefully analyzing the behavioral
patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so
on. Empathy soft ware can be used to make a Judge Intentions Test
(see p. 130, SR4) for emotional status using its rating as the dice
pool. It does not detect falsehoods; that’s the realm of lie detection
soft ware. Empathy soft ware can be discreetly used in real time during
negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice
pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests.

In short, empathy software is more akin to tacsoft than it is to knowsoft.

As to the remainder of your argument, you boggled me. A smartlink interprets data from the sensors of the smartgun and provides the results for use. Empathy software interprets data from other sensors and provides the results for use. That the smartgun's data is "cut and dried" doesn't change the fact it's a lot of wildly variable data that is being interpreted so as to be useful.  "Oh, windspeed is 15 kph at 45 degrees to flight of bullet. Adjust aimpoint... crap, where's that formula?"

[Solomon]

All sensor software would need a database. A machine can easily determine windspeed without difficulty. Measuring physical data is what machines excel at. It is why we have machines. Determining embarrassment over a sexual infidelity requires massive reference data and isnt what a machine is designed or capable of doing on it's own at all. Unless your camera has some kind of highly emotive AI involved how would it understand emotions? It needs reference data. As for your argument that it is like a tascoft, well, tacsofts are on the same list as empathy software that you can't thread without databases. A tacsoft database tells you what weapon your enemy is using based on your sensor datat and it's capabilities or evaluates the armor for weaknesses. I wouldnt read that and let a technomancer thread a tacsoft either. It doesnt fit the theme of a technomancer and doesnt make logical sense.

[kirk]

I'm not sure you're reading the same empathy software description I'm reading. "analyzing the behavioral patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so on."

Here's empathy software analysis level one - an old and simple merchant/bargaining/negotiating tool: Program observes subject's pupils and pulse rate, and reports when either changes (and percentage of change). Error balancing for pupils is any change in ambient light. Error change for pulse is change in activity.

Both are involuntary reactions. Pupils dilate when a person is interested or pleased, and they constrict in the opposite case. Pulse rate changes as well.

If the sensors are good enough they can also measure capillary expansion (which in the extreme leads to blushing).

None of that requires a database.

Ah, well, when you're GM you rule as you wish, and when I'm GM I'll allow that option.

[Solomon]

Actually you are 100% wrong and your argument proves my case. By saying that pupil dilation indicates interest is a function of the sensor software either your character needs to already know that with a skill or the software has to tell you that. For the software to tell you that it has to have the information linking pupil dilation and interest stored somewhere. Software doesn't "know" anything not stored in a database and characters don't know about psychology and anatomy without skills. A camera alerting you that a pupil dilated is useless information if it comes without context. Context that has to be stored somewhere. Like a database maybe

[kirk]

Yet the TM can CF smartlinks. She can compile a tutor sprite that has a skillsoft she doesn't know, which she can then use via the sprite's proficiency.

She can run Analyze, which somehow knows all the possible system resources and registries, regardless of operating system. She can use Analyze to detect computer viruses and worms and trojans.

This is a world of magic. A technomancer is a reflection of magic within the matrix. Note, not magic, but a reflection of it, doing what is supposedly impossible.

This is a world where a man can turn into a falcon, fly a distance, then change back and immolate a squad of soldiers merely by "wishing' it so.

This is a world where a troll (!) can, with his mind, intercept, decrypt, pattern match, determine originating system, hack into it and create a new valid user.

But a program can't have a simple instruction set that says "if the pupils get bigger the subject is either in brighter light or likes what she's seeing/hearing/thinking."

I get it. You don't like technomancers. Fortunately for you, using that CF is optional. Unfortunately, TMs are not.