[UmaroVI]

Well, yes, you might change things somewhat if you start throwing in houserules. Also, your argument doesn't really make much sense - there's some underlying cognitive dissonance. You were claiming that augmented adepts were not actually better than unaugmented adepts... and then you say you have houserules to prevent augmented adepts from working, and claim that they are abusive! If they aren't better, why is it "abusive" to be one? And why do you need houserules for them?

You actually don't need to lose more than 1 essence to make an augmented adept that's more effective than an unaugmented one, if you so choose. If you give me a minute, I'll make a Shiroi's Houserules Compliant augmented adept, although the effectiveness difference will be a bit less stark.

[UmaroVI]

Actually, your houserules don't even really change things that much. Here's a simple way to modify your original character that complies with both your houserules and results in a better (but RUINED  ) adept.

Overall, in the very select circumstance of taking at least a -9 penalty to a shot when Attribute Boosted and using your attuned weapon and none of the penalty is from recoil or from called shots, the original adept has +1 more die to hit. Even in those circumstances, I’d rather have all the other benefits like more initiative, better defenses, and more perception and infiltration - and those are some VERY specific circumstances. Most of the time, the augmented adept is just better in every way.

Also, the gap is even bigger if you use automatics, since you can slap a cyberarm gyromount in, and that+foot anchors is 5 recoil compensation with 2-handed weapons, which is a huge benefit to an automatics user. But I'm assuming pistols here, where 2 recoil compensation is nice, but not critical.

Net results:
+1 initiative
+1 melee and range defense
-1 surprise tests
+1 armor
+2 perception
+2 recoil compensation
+3 P damage boxes
-2 Adept Centering penalty cancelling
+4 to pistols versus not attribute boosted/ +1 versus average attribute boost
+5/+2 for Unarmed and Infiltration

2 points of essence will be lost to 'ware, thus 2 less intiations, freeing up 40 karma - and I'm assuming the cost for raising magic will be the same, per your houserule.
Buy up Reaction to 6 with 30 karma
Buy up Assensing to 5 with 10 karma

Take the Warrior's Way discount on Improved Reflexes, Combat Sense, and Improved Ability (Pistols)

This character has 6 + 3 = 9 power points to spend
[3]   Improved Reflexes 3
[2.25]   Combat Sense 6
[.75]    Improved Ability (Pistols) 2
[.5]   Quick Draw
[1]   Astral Perception
[.75] Enhanced Perception 3
[.75] Improved Ability (Agility)

Ware
Geneware: Genetic Optimization (Agility) (45000) .2 essence
Reakt (45000) .4 essence

Bioware: Betaware Muscle Toner 4 (160000) .56 essence
Betaware Reflex Recorder (Pistols) (50000) .07 essence

Cyberware: 2 Alphaware Cyber Lower Legs and Alphaware Cyber Lower Arm (off-arm) with Armor 3, Foot Anchors in both feet, and 3 or 4 capacity worth of whatever (81400, 1.08 essence)
Deltaware Attention Coprocessor 3 (90000, .15 essence)

You could easily jam a bit more stuff in there but whatever, it works.

[The Big Peat]

Another angle is how do you register power anyway? Is it just how many dice you can throw at one problem under optimal circumstanmces? How many dice you can throw at the problem under any circumstances? HOw many different solutions to a possible problem do you have?

Something I picked up from D&D optimisation forums was rating characters by the ability to do several other things, as that meant they always has a suitable option. I agree with this in rpgs, which is why I brought it up - I'd wager builds looking for versatility probably come out worse on these ideas as Adepts.

It's very, very hard to make those sorts of comparisons, because it always comes down to "what kind of game does the GM run." This is why I set the benchpost as: can you make an adept who wouldn't be made better at the things they already do by using 'ware too? That is, if it's a social adept, can they use 'ware to be better at social skills without sacrificing in another area to pay for it?

You can, of course, make an adept that you cannot make an apples to apples comparison with by taking only gimmick powers - like having 6 magic, and buying, say, Distance Strike, Wall Running, Astral Perception, Living Focus, and Gliding. All of those give you unique abilities not duplicable with 'ware... but of course, this character has no synergy and nothing to back up their use of these powers, so they aren't going to be very good, and they also took some really awful powers in that mix; this is what me and my friends call a Pie Eating Adept. You simply can't compare them to an augmented adept, because what they are good at is eating pies, and there isn't cyberware that makes you better at eating pies.

You are correct that it can well be hard to make those comparisions and it depends on the GM, although that's often the case for lots of these. That doesn't make the point invalid though (in particular, frequency of background counts looms heavily in discussion of Adept effectiveness).

The point of versatility though, which I will probabbly expand some other time, went unanswered - and that was the biggest point in this. The Adept vs. Augmented Adept vs. Augmented so far seems to be on "Pick something, then be really good at it", which are grounds that favour the Adept. I'm curious to see where these comparisions lead with characters that actively try to cover two or three niches well, as it is an area where personally I expect to see the Adept start losing heavier.

[Tsuzua]

Well, my first impression is - its not legal. Second is, if it would not be legal, why posting it , so  - its a nice display of rule abuse (=.

I don't have the core rulebook with me now, cause I am at work, but if you look at the Adept quality description, I think, there is mentioned a warning for GMs about not letting players misuse this quality. Well, it fits for you perfectly (=.

It all comes back to the essence loss/magic advancement karma cost. A -4 essence, 7 magic character is in fact a magic 11 character.
(BTW. we keep a house rule of limiting magic @ 9 = 1,5x natural maximum of 6. If you loose 4 essence, your natural maximum for magic becomes 2, limiting you to magic and grade @ 3 =1,5x2)
This is the main reason, why no one in our group would even think about such a character (=.

Anyway, good job with this, the character looks complete ruined for me  , but it has probably better ROLL chances that the pure one.   

The passage you're looking for is this:

Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for characters that are intended to be played as adepts.

As a guy who starts off a magic 6 with no ware and then buys up his magic to 7, I think counts as an adept. 

Also I'm not sure you wouldn't allow the story of a man who is heavily focused on his magical abilities, nearly loses it, and then has to reforge his magic connection as a ROLEplay option. 

[Tsuzua]

Another angle is how do you register power anyway? Is it just how many dice you can throw at one problem under optimal circumstanmces? How many dice you can throw at the problem under any circumstances? HOw many different solutions to a possible problem do you have?

Something I picked up from D&D optimisation forums was rating characters by the ability to do several other things, as that meant they always has a suitable option. I agree with this in rpgs, which is why I brought it up - I'd wager builds looking for versatility probably come out worse on these ideas as Adepts.

It's very, very hard to make those sorts of comparisons, because it always comes down to "what kind of game does the GM run." This is why I set the benchpost as: can you make an adept who wouldn't be made better at the things they already do by using 'ware too? That is, if it's a social adept, can they use 'ware to be better at social skills without sacrificing in another area to pay for it?

You can, of course, make an adept that you cannot make an apples to apples comparison with by taking only gimmick powers - like having 6 magic, and buying, say, Distance Strike, Wall Running, Astral Perception, Living Focus, and Gliding. All of those give you unique abilities not duplicable with 'ware... but of course, this character has no synergy and nothing to back up their use of these powers, so they aren't going to be very good, and they also took some really awful powers in that mix; this is what me and my friends call a Pie Eating Adept. You simply can't compare them to an augmented adept, because what they are good at is eating pies, and there isn't cyberware that makes you better at eating pies.

You are correct that it can well be hard to make those comparisions and it depends on the GM, although that's often the case for lots of these. That doesn't make the point invalid though (in particular, frequency of background counts looms heavily in discussion of Adept effectiveness).

The point of versatility though, which I will probabbly expand some other time, went unanswered - and that was the biggest point in this. The Adept vs. Augmented Adept vs. Augmented so far seems to be on "Pick something, then be really good at it", which are grounds that favour the Adept. I'm curious to see where these comparisions lead with characters that actively try to cover two or three niches well, as it is an area where personally I expect to see the Adept start losing heavier.

The reason why augmented versus unaugmented adept debates typically take "anything you can do I can do better than you" is because it's clear and simple.  What is and isn't a good idea for a character varies wildy in a SR game.  Thus arguments like "well I have -3 dice to shoot pistols, but I have the ability to pick a rating 4 maglock" don't really work.  Because if doing this is a good idea varies wildly based on the ratio between hardware tests and pistols tests you make.  And that depends on the nature of your game, the other players, and the challenges they face.

Thus, you take it as a given that a given character is "well-rounded" enough to function and merely showing that they would be better if they took some ware.  Being able to do something else is a feather in your cap in your argument, but is not the thrust of it.

D&D Optimization takes a more generalist approach mainly as a way to point out the failure of non-casters in that system.  Sure you can make a fighter who can do a respectable amount of damage with a sword.  But you can make a caster who does that much damage while being able to do everything else in the game.

[Shiroi]

Final Ware Loadout: -3.913 essence, 481000 spent.
(2.106 after Adapsin, 1.053 after halving) Cyberware (134200)
(1.2) Alphaware Cybertorso with Customized Body 6 (49000)
   +2 Body [2] (800)
   4 Armor [8] (2400)
(.45) each x2 Cyber Lower Leg (10000 each)
   4 Armor [8] (1200 each)
   Foot Anchor [3] (4000 each)
   1 free capacity for amusing things
(.24) Alphaware Attention Coprocessor (18000)

(1.2) Geneware (170000)
   (.2) Genetic Optimization (Agility) (45000)
   (.4) Reakt (45000)
   (.4) Qualia (40000)
   (.2) Adapsin (40000)
(1.66) Bioware (234000)
   (.56) Alphaware Suprathyroid Gland (90000)
   (.1) Reflex Recorder (Pistols) (10000)
   (.64) Alphaware Muscle Toner 4 (64000)
   (.2) Trauma Damper (40000)
   (.16) Alphaware Cerebral Booster (20000)

So, if I am correct, bioware does not function in cyber body parts, magic based powers (like increased reflexes, increased attribute,..) could also have problems with it. In general, everything from Health spells category has a problem with cyber/bio parts in the system. So as a GM, I would first explain to you, why I think your cyber torso and both your cyber lower legs hinder with your coordination and would not transfer bio upgrades / certain powers (your cyber body parts have all ability, reaction 3).
So obviously, to avoid large agility and reaction dice looses, your next move would be, upgrading your customized cyber limbs to your augmented values, loosing maybe few numbers in armor and increasing the cost.
The last think on my mind would be, that the disturbance in the body (caused by huge essence loss) will be the cause of health issues in any magic user ( headaches, focus problems,..) and this gets me to an image, where you trade the Adept quality with Magician and use the same metod as you did. Well, no sense to continue more in this direction.

Also I'm not sure why the story of a man who is heavily focused on his magical abilities, nearly loses it, and then has to reforge his magic connection won't be allowed as a ROLEplay option. 

I also see no problem in this, but tell me, should it be profitable for the character to do it this way? Or should it be more hard for him?
If you have 2 characters with starting magic 5, 1 of them decides to drop 2 points of magic for the best combat ware, you will loose 20 BP and have to make it up by 45 karma points. Now if you start at magic 3, do it the same way, you will again loose 20 BP, but only 25 karma points. So its actualy very profitable to spend 20 BP and the first 25 karma points for nice 2 essence points worth of ware and then continue the road of increasing magic, because based on how karma system works, after a while, you will be, in fact, on the same magic level as the non wared character (you ok with this).

On the other hand, if you handle magic/essence loss more logically (as I said before) then a character with magic 3 that buys 2 essence worth of ware (now magic 1), would have to buy an increase of magic to 2 as if he had magic 3 and wanted to increase it to 4 (20 karma points). So, now it is balanced and players cant profit from it, because they will be 2 points of magic behind all the time, and they have the ware to compansate it.

[UmaroVI]

So, if I am correct, bioware does not function in cyber body parts, magic based powers (like increased reflexes, increased attribute,..) could also have problems with it. In general, everything from Health spells category has a problem with cyber/bio parts in the system. So as a GM, I would first explain to you, why I think your cyber torso and both your cyber lower legs hinder with your coordination and would not transfer bio upgrades / certain powers (your cyber body parts have all ability, reaction 3).
So obviously, to avoid large agility and reaction dice looses, your next move would be, upgrading your customized cyber limbs to your augmented values, loosing maybe few numbers in armor and increasing the cost.
The last think on my mind would be, that the disturbance in the body (caused by huge essence loss) will be the cause of health issues in any magic user ( headaches, focus problems,..) and this gets me to an image, where you trade the Adept quality with Magician and use the same metod as you did. Well, no sense to continue more in this direction.

Your argument appears to have changed from "Adepts are not worse than Augmented Adepts" to "I made up some rules that make Augmented Adepts not allowed, because I don't like them." It's bad form to keep changing your argument as your points are disproven, and I'm done discussing this topic with you since I'm sure whatever points I make, you'll just respond by saying that I'm wrong because of your houserules (which you, conveniently, only seem to mention after they become relevant).

Incidentally, cyberlimbs don't have Reaction scores. Reaction is a whole body attribute. Also, health spells in general are not hindered by essence loss, only the single, specific spell Heal. Lastly, I don't think you know how the rules for cyberlimb ability scores and tests with them work; you should read http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4672.msg70364#msg70364 where Hida Tsuzua explains how they function; I'm not honestly sure how you think they work.

[Tsuzua]

I also see no problem in this, but tell me, should it be profitable for the character to do it this way? Or should it be more hard for him?
If you have 2 characters with starting magic 5, 1 of them decides to drop 2 points of magic for the best combat ware, you will loose 20 BP and have to make it up by 45 karma points. Now if you start at magic 3, do it the same way, you will again loose 20 BP, but only 25 karma points. So its actualy very profitable to spend 20 BP and the first 25 karma points for nice 2 essence points worth of ware and then continue the road of increasing magic, because based on how karma system works, after a while, you will be, in fact, on the same magic level as the non wared character (you ok with this).

On the other hand, if you handle magic/essence loss more logically (as I said before) then a character with magic 3 that buys 2 essence worth of ware (now magic 1), would have to buy an increase of magic to 2 as if he had magic 3 and wanted to increase it to 4 (20 karma points). So, now it is balanced and players cant profit from it, because they will be 2 points of magic behind all the time, and they have the ware to compansate it.

That's really only going to cost the adept ~20 karma more for 2 magic loss.  Sure it now costs more, but it's not that bad compared to the huge advantages you get.  Umaro's second adept ends up with 10 karma left over and -1 reaction.  He's still better with the ware.

You really have to come up with houserule after houserule to make pure adepts work.  Their fundamental issues is that there aren't enough good powers that justify their cost.  Thus, it's going to be a good idea to grab the low hanging ware fruit once you have the basics done. 

Personally, I think the modern adept design needs to be wiped clean.  I have some ideas such as having adept powers scale with magic rating rather than buying levels, but nothing formal. 

[UmaroVI]

Actually, my second adept uses Shiroi's houserule for buying Magic with karma after losing essence.

[squee_nabob]

+1 Bump for adept powers scaling with magic. An example might be...

2 PP for +1 Reaction +1 IP per 2 Magic (rounded up) max of +3 Reaction + 3 IPs, does not stack with other forms of Initiative enhancement.

[JoeNapalm]

Adapsin?

Adapsin is specifically verboten during CharGen.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[UmaroVI]

Correct - that character gets Adapsin post-chargen. Shiroi's original contention was that an augmented adept would eventually fall behind a pure adept after enough money and karma.

[JoeNapalm]

Ah. Reading comprehension fail. 

Mia culpa.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Mäx]

ok, so we are at 49 dice.  Not 50 dice but still the current blue ribbon winner.  That lets you buy 12 hits before edge, buy the way.  Probably enough.

Can't let the ribbon go by me, so here's the latest pornomancer build
Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)

3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51

The first option does reguier the help of the teams mage, but even the second one gets over 50 

[Zilfer]

ok, so we are at 49 dice.  Not 50 dice but still the current blue ribbon winner.  That lets you buy 12 hits before edge, buy the way.  Probably enough.

Can't let the ribbon go by me, so here's the latest pornomancer build
Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)

3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51

The first option does reguier the help of the teams mage, but even the second one gets over 50 

Curious if you can put that brain to use to 'counter' what you just did with an opposing roll to see through that. xD