[Solomon]

Actually I think technomancers are incredibly cool but they have a role and a theme. Complex forms dont exist to replace skills, which is why you cant complex form autosofts and other skillsofts and as far as I am concerned empathy software. Once you start breaking the theme you lessen how cool they are. Digital matrix specialists is what they do, they do it incredibly well and it is an awesome feature of the game. Making it more than that just makes them magicians, which is lame.

As for your argument that software gets an inherent database without needing a database because magic exists is a pretty weak argument.

[Mäx]

Actually I think technomancers are incredibly cool but they have a role and a theme. Complex forms dont exist to replace skills, which is why you cant complex form autosofts and other skillsofts and as far as I am concerned empathy software. Once you start breaking the theme you lessen how cool they are. Digital matrix specialists is what they do, they do it incredibly well and it is an awesome feature of the game. Making it more than that just makes them magicians, which is lame.

As for your argument that software gets an inherent database without needing a database because magic exists is a pretty weak argument.

I guess you haven't read Unwired.
After the first submersion a Technomancer can if he picked the right Echo emulate skillsofts into complexforms.
Also the empathy software does have an inbuild database because the rules doesn't mention it needing an external database.

[Solomon]

Some things dont need to be explicitly stated, some things any rational person who even tried to understand the themes of the game and the way software works should be quite easily understood. Threading and complex forms are specifically for manipulating digital information, not storing information and not processing non digital information. I believe the cited section of Unwired makes that clear when talking about sensor software and tacsofts. Software can not think or rember for itself without some kind of database and threading can not create a database without information available. Now, if the technomancer had high knowledge skills in anatomy and psychology I might let him thread the software up to his knowledge skill in rating using his own knowledge as the database but I would never let him essentially invent skills and knowledge the way this is insinuating

And yes you can get skillwires after you submerge/initiate but even then you cant thread them above the rating of the original skillsoft you used to emulate the form so you are stuck generally with fairly low levels of ability compared to actual complex forms you can thread normally in terms of ratings and you cant improve those ratings with karma either. Much different situation

[Mäx]

Some things dont need to be explicitly stated, some things any rational person who even tried to understand the themes of the game and the way software works should be quite easily understood.

Yes it should be quite easy for anyone to understand that a software that mentions nothing about needing an external database to work, really doesn't need an external database to work, using instead an internall database that is part of the program in question.

[Solomon]

So how does a technomancer build a database, internal or external (honestly there is no functional difference between these things) with threading? A data base is a storehouse of information, raw data. If the technomancer doesnt have that information where does it come from when threading or building a complex form? Everything they build comes from within their own minds

[kirk]

So how does a technomancer build a database, internal or external (honestly there is no functional difference between these things) with threading? A data base is a storehouse of information, raw data. If the technomancer doesnt have that information where does it come from when threading or building a complex form? Everything they build comes from within their own minds

Existing CFs that use "databases" as per your claim:
Analyze
Exploit
Decrypt - oh, I especially reference decrypt:

Decrypt programs are designed to conduct a number of cipher-busting attacks—from pattern analysis to brute-force dictionary assaults to sophisticated mathematical tricks—to break into an encrypted system or service.

Those are the ones clearly need a long list of possible data on which to build - a dataabase. "A data base is a storehouse of information, raw data. If the technomancer doesnt have that information where does it come from when threading or building a complex form? Everything they build comes from within their own mind."

Where is the technomancer sustaining the database of cipher-busting attacks?
Where is the technomancer getting the database of security flaws and weaknesses?
Where is the database of registries, icon functions and types, program types, and so on that are necessary for Analyze to do a matrix perception report?

Saying a CF can't do that flies in the face of the fact that some CFs do, indeed, do that. It is the same reason saying it can't act as an interpreter between a set of sensors and the user fails.

The only valid reason is that the rulebook says it is optional, and it is an option you choose to not use. As I said, I happen to accept that reason from you for your game.

[Solomon]

It says in the books that technomancers instinctively work with digital information, breaking codes and detecting inconsistency in other programs and hardware by intuition. They sense flaws in programs, electronics, decryption and matrix ready devices. Technomancer intuition doesnt extend to programs that dont deal with digital information and is purely part of the physical realm.. At least that is my reading on the difference. Just like there are limitations with what an astral character can do with the physical realm. They just dont naturally overlap

[Mäx]

So how does a technomancer build a database, internal or external (honestly there is no functional difference between these things) with threading? A data base is a storehouse of information, raw data. If the technomancer doesnt have that information where does it come from when threading or building a complex form?

The Resonance Realms.
Those contain all data that has ever been in the matrix.

[Zilfer]

Someone want to clear up what this discussion is about because I just read the last 10 post and i'm confused as to what you are arguing and if you are arguing the same thing. O.o'

[kirk]

Someone want to clear up what this discussion is about because I just read the last 10 post and i'm confused as to what you are arguing and if you are arguing the same thing. O.o'

At core, Solomon does not think the optional rule to allow technomancers to have sensor software as CFs should be used, and some of the rest of us do. 

Beyond that, I think it's a matter of clashing interpretations of rules and perceptions of real life. It isn't acrimonious or it'd be a thread locker, but it's becoming repetitive enough that may happen anyway.