[The_Gun_Nut]

Additional hits beyond that which reduces scatter to zero add to the DV, so why would burst firing them change that?

[Mäx]

Additional hits beyond that which reduces scatter to zero add to the DV, so why would burst firing them change that?

No they don't, that was one of the nerf on grenades in Anniversary edition.

[The_Gun_Nut]

That makes no sense.  They added to damage in every other edition, plus it makes it impossible to kill the weakest, skinniest human being on Earth with a grenade exploding in his hands.  That's an asinine rule change, and I will never use it.

[FastJack]

The key is to toss the grenade in confined space. Then the blast richochets off walls & barriers and hits the PC again. And again. And AGAIN.

[Usda Beph]

[American Pie]This one time back in Band Camp[/American Pie]
2 of our Squad Leaders used an M203 having a PFC "rapid load" the breach as they opened it. The shots may not have been truly "rapid fire" but the grouping was good enough to have hit or been in blast radius of every grenade on a target truck! It was totally cool & I wanted to have tried it!

[The_Gun_Nut]

If you want to get really technical with blast effects, then the target should get the rebound of the blast off the floor from an air burst grenade.  I really don't want to consider that one, as it adds a bit too much complexity for typical firefights.  I only want to consider floor blasting in case the floor might actually give way.

And I don't want to have to put a room around a target to ensure that Joe Average standing naked can get killed by a grenade.  It needs to be done on the merits of the base rules, where anyone can die from any weapon (given sufficient good or bad fortune).  Removing the bonus damage from bonus hits makes no sense for this.

[Doc Chaos]

Gun Nut So how do you use Narcoject weapons? Since technically you can't improve the Narcoject's power with your successes, you can't knockout a person with one hit. And the second hit will allmost every time do enough additional stun damage to carry over into physical.

[KarmaInferno]

There have been odd real-life cases like where grenades have gone off two feet from a soldier, killed everyone around him, but left him with nothing more than scrapes & bruises and a feeling like someone stuck a bucket over his head and hit it with a mallet a few times.

Blast effects behave oddly sometimes.





-karma

[The_Gun_Nut]

This is absolutely true.  However based upon the current (SR4A) rules, a single grenade could not kill any of the soldiers.  The worst it could do is knock them out, assuming no one had a Body of 5 or higher.  If that's the case, then they don't even drop unconscious.  This is a terrible error on the devs part.  Not grevious, but really not well thought out.

As for Narcojet?  It does 10 boxes of stun, which is sufficient to knock out anyone with a Willpower of 4 or less.  Should people with strong wills have a chance to go unconscious?  Absolutely, and while the rules don't state that bonus hits boost damage of the toxin, they could be used that way to represent getting the toxin into an important blood vessel which would carry it straight to the brain (in the case of Narcojet).  An extra box or two could represent bruising and some nosebleeds or some other biological effect.

One of the things that has always been really attractive about the SR game mechanics is that anyone can die from anything.  Even if your character is a maxed out troll cyberzombie with crazy amounts of armor and whatever else one can think of, it is possible, just not likely, that grandma with AGI 1 and EDG 1 will one shot you with her hold-out pistol.  This result is highly unlikely, but it exists within the realm of possibility based upon the rules.  It means that the players can't just blunder through with certainty (hey, that sword only does 1D8+2 damage, I can take it!), they have to be aware that their characters may die in any combat.  This encourages clever thinking and problem solving, and I heartily agree with it.

Now, back to the atuofire grenades, please.  I'm really curious to see what others think (regarding modelling it).

[Usda Beph]

Our resident sniper used a Grenade launcher in our practice sessions. Twice he dropped the grenades right on target & twice the target absorbed the damage for total OMG results! Bearly a scratch from two HE genades dropped right in to the guard's pocket for flesh wounds basically.

[System]

Gun Nut So how do you use Narcoject weapons? Since technically you can't improve the Narcoject's power with your successes, you can't knockout a person with one hit. And the second hit will allmost every time do enough additional stun damage to carry over into physical.

Older editions of Shadowrun counted damage test successes as being better hits (closer to major veins and arteries, etc) and increased damage accordingly.  That seems the way to handle it in 4e too. 

Grenades are vicious.  The counter to them in the game should be making them hard to get(in a civilized location, lol) and absurdly illegal like they should be.  Not to mention that using grenades should take the enemy from zero to overwhelming deadly force in about 1.04 seconds.

One of the things that has always been really attractive about the SR game mechanics is that anyone can die from anything.  Even if your character is a maxed out troll cyberzombie with crazy amounts of armor and whatever else one can think of, it is possible, just not likely, that grandma with AGI 1 and EDG 1 will one shot you with her hold-out pistol.  This result is highly unlikely, but it exists within the realm of possibility based upon the rules.  It means that the players can't just blunder through with certainty (hey, that sword only does 1D8+2 damage, I can take it!), they have to be aware that their characters may die in any combat.  This encourages clever thinking and problem solving, and I heartily agree with it.

Actually, not true.  That was always one of Shadowrun's biggest flaws with combat mechanics.  Let's face it, if Shadowrun has always been weak in one area, it is combat mechanics. 

It was a mechanical impossibility in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd for Grandma to kill you in one shot, even if she hit you in the face with a bullet from her Ruger Super Warhawk.  She just couldn't generate the successes to reach Deadly damage. 

[FastJack]

Hence, the reason the combat mechanics have been described as "cinematic".

[Usda Beph]

I'm happy the mechanics are not totally real. Our Runners would be dead quickly and often. I know lots of gunners who can shoot the eyes out of a target at 300 yards. When bullets fly like the did in our warm up run... Usda would be dead or bleeding to death. After getting hit for 6 damage. Thats some serious penetration and need for medical attention ASAP!

[The_Gun_Nut]

Actually, not true.  That was always one of Shadowrun's biggest flaws with combat mechanics.  Let's face it, if Shadowrun has always been weak in one area, it is combat mechanics. 

It was a mechanical impossibility in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd for Grandma to kill you in one shot, even if she hit you in the face with a bullet from her Ruger Super Warhawk.  She just couldn't generate the successes to reach Deadly damage. 

Absolutely not true.  Assuming the other person hit perfectly (karma use in the old editions, Edge use in the new to get the extra oomph needed), and the target fails every resistance test, the heaviest troll tank will fall to grandma and her .22 caliber lemon squeezer.  Is the possibility on the far end of the bell curve?  Abso-freakin'-lutely.  Is it still on the curve?  Yes, it is.  I wouldn't count on it, by any means.  But it is nice to know that it is there.

Having played through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition (1st was the sketchiest for this, I admit), combat has always been brutal and deadly.  The only time I've seen characters survive otherwise lethal shots was when the GM wanted them to for his story.  I hear horror stories about indestructible street sams or what not, and I've always been able to shoot holes (so to speak) in the whys and hows that the person could survive.  I've never encountered any character that couldn't be killed.  Not in the now 21 years I've played Shadowrun.  I've even seen my players take down a dragon, who by all means shouldn't have died.  They were up against two squads of heavy sams and the dragon; they shouldn't have walked out of that, but they did.  (Well, they flew off in a Banshee before the military carpet bombed the location, but still).

[System]

I don't know how many Grandmas your old game had burning Karma, but it sounds pretty vicious.