[Shinobi Killfist]

I actually don't mind mind probe, but I understand why it isn't allowed in missions.  Still in my games it seems to reduce the amount of sociopathic interrogations, with enough social dice pools to get the info anyways.  Still thematically I prefer things like analyze truth, or compel truth.  It involves some role play and the threat of always knowing a lie also seems to cut down on the crazy. 

[Jazz]

Aside from the request for more humans, are there any other types of characters people would like to see?

- Norm, mundane characters to replace the weapon specialist.
- Crafters
- Hacker/Shaman focused on debuff
- THE ultimate Rigger

[UmaroVI]

The first three of those are unfortunately not supported characters in SR4A. I might include a more rigging-focused technomancer at some point.

Unaugmented mundanes just don't work, especially not people like the Weapon Specialist who try to be good at meatspace combat. If you want the appeal of "looks like a normal dude, not like a killer cyborg," try the Spook.

Crafting is banned in Missions.

Debuffs unfortunately just don't work. It's just as hard to debuff someone as it is to KO them.

[Onion Man]

I have just got to say thank you for these again.  One of the guys I'll be running through Missions has just settled on the Transhuman Mystic, pointing another one at this thread too.

So much more convenient than making characters from scratch with or for each of them.

[Tsuzua]

I have just got to say thank you for these again.  One of the guys I'll be running through Missions has just settled on the Transhuman Mystic, pointing another one at this thread too.

Tell me how it goes!  The Transhuman Mystic is one of the odder and more recent builds out there and it'll be interesting to see how it works out in other groups.

[_-Target-_]

Aside from the request for more humans, are there any other types of characters people would like to see? By "types" I mean stuff like metatype, general function, etc, rather than highly-specific things, since I want to keep them generic.

I would like to see a full scale hacker.. maxed out for matrix work.. so so at all else...  not a troll.. just a human

[UmaroVI]

While an elf rather than a human, that's the Technoshaman.

[EDJohnson]

While perhaps not the most straight forward character concept, I have always thought techno mages were really neat, especially that of a Chaos Mage (using tech even in magical rituals and such).

They both use similar attributes (mental), so it usually boils down to nuyen spent on hacker stuff (50k ish) and skills.

Using the Karma system (and only 700 karma despite the book saying 750), I made a very plausible hacker/mage. With the SR4 system, this is even easier, as essence does not need to be spent on implants. I bought them anyway (a math SPU for example) in my example, but for an archetype, that could probably be skipped.

So, to boil it down to archetype terms: A Techno Wizard, human mage focused on utility magic and hacking

[rasmusnicolaj]

I would like to see a pure (no cyber or bioware) adepts.

Regards
Rasmus

[Neurosis]

The first three of those are unfortunately not supported characters in SR4A. I might include a more rigging-focused technomancer at some point.

Unaugmented mundanes just don't work, especially not people like the Weapon Specialist who try to be good at meatspace combat. If you want the appeal of "looks like a normal dude, not like a killer cyborg," try the Spook.

Crafting is banned in Missions.

Debuffs unfortunately just don't work. It's just as hard to debuff someone as it is to KO them.

Overall you seem to have a solid grasp on the rules and system mastery and all that but you do tend to make a lot of categorical blanket statements that I disagree with. Like about debuffs, for instance. I don't even agree that they don't work well, but still, something that doesn't work as well as something else isn't the same as something that doesn't work, period. You seem very averse to making that distinction.

Semi-related: You could build a much better version of the weapon specialist. It still wouldn't be good, but it would be better.

[EDJohnson]

Like about debuffs, for instance. I don't even agree that they don't work well, but still, something that doesn't work as well as something else isn't the same as something that doesn't work, period. You seem very averse to making that distinction.

As a very magically oriented person, I will totally make the call that debuffs as a MAIN function is a less efficient method than say Stun Bolting people. This is from someone that had a character that used Agony as their signature spell for their entire career.

The main problem with Debuffs revolves around Drain and Sustaining. First, you have to cast a spell and take the drain. Sure, an Illusion is usually easy to drain, but a Health spell like Decreased Attribute or Reflexes... just not very practical usually, as they require touch. The drain is also higher for those in general. Second, the mage has to sustain it. You COULD get a sustaining focus, but it has to be in contact of the target. If you have a mage sustaining a bunch of debuffs, assuming they soaked the drain, then they are not doing what most runner teams want mages to do: throw fireballs.

UmaroVI has done a good job for the most part, and he has specifically designed these characters for MISSIONS, NOT general role play. These are the characters that get stuff done. A debuff in place of a fireball is usually not going to get enough done, but I will also be the first to admit a well placed Chaotic World is terrific if you can take the drain and hold it.

[Cass100199]

Does someone have a link to a chargen or spreadsheet that incorporates Way of the Adept?

[baronspam]

The problem with debuffs isn't always the debuffs themselves, its the existence of stunbolt and stunball.  Unconscious is a 100% debuff to most dice polls.  The fact that you can overcast stunbolt just about every IP and still not feel the drain makes it hard to want to spend your action on a spell that  drains off some reaction, or something similar.

[squee_nabob]

I would like to see a pure (no cyber or bioware) adepts.

Regards
Rasmus

You are actually pretty much correct - adepts are not very good, and pure adepts (meaning not mystic adepts and not cybered) are quite bad, second only to the "mundane with no ware" concept in "sounds cool but not supported." What adepts are good at is "enhancing" something else - albeit, expensively. The idea is that adepts get bonuses that stack with everything else, so you can use them to be better at that thing than any other person. Adepts also have a few powers that give you non-replicable abilities that are really useful. This being Shadowrun, though, they also have piles and piles and PILES of terrible, useless powers, powers that are ridiculously overpriced, powers that are over-balanced so they don't do anything helpful, etc.

…

I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who would never want 'ware for reasons other than RP, having Sensitive System, or being a sapient critter or some other type of character who cannot take ware. If you want to be a pure adept who doesn't have and never gets 'ware because you think it's cool, go for it, but it is from an optimization standpoint bad.

Taken from http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4610.msg68751#msg68751

EDIT: I'm not trying to put Umaro's mouth, I agree with his position that unaugmented adepts are unsupported in SR4A, and I think this is why none of the sample characters are an unaugmented adept.

[Neurosis]

As a very magically oriented person, I will totally make the call that debuffs as a MAIN function is a less efficient method than say Stun Bolting people. This is from someone that had a character that used Agony as their signature spell for their entire career.

Well sure, truth be told, every spell in the game is significantly less efficient than stunbolt, which I'm not especially happy about.

I think that most decent debuff spells occupy a tier between the hyper-efficiency of Stunbolt and the very very not of indirect combat spells.

That said, I think that having a spirit use its Confusion power on someone is a very strong option, and might be even more efficient in terms of time than telling the spirit to kill/incapacitate that person. It would certainly take less time. (Unless of course the spirit was a Spirit of Man, with Innate Spell (Stunbolt).