[UmaroVI]

All of that, I definitely agree with. I would, however, also note that high Edge is pretty important - because of the ability to reroll your Damage Resistance checks, you can get huge mileage out of edge for those times when you take a massive Narrow Long Burst or something like that.

[Charybdis]

All of that, I definitely agree with. I would, however, also note that high Edge is pretty important - because of the ability to reroll your Damage Resistance checks, you can get huge mileage out of edge for those times when you take a massive Narrow Long Burst or something like that.

Definitely this.

When you're rolling 20+ dice and they come out SUCKY, it's Incredibly gratifying to say: Hmm, 1 edge to reroll 18 dice? Gold!

[Shadowjack]

I'm playing a tank style character right now with 2 cyber limbs, 2 cyber legs and a cyber torso(all alphaware). Although we play with a house rule that stun damage from physical damage bullets will not drop me. This is because it seems very silly that I can have tons of armor and potentially go down to 2 bullets via stun. So instead, once my stun reaches 1 box we put all overflow damage into my physical track. This allows my tanking style to work and in many fights I still get very low or go down so I think it's pretty balanced. Also, my penalties from damage can reach very high levels which does cripple my character pretty badly. I'm planning on  getting a pain editor once I can afford it.

As for race selection, I think any race you like is fine. Troll is the obvious choice though. I went with elf because I wanted 8 charisma so I could still have reasonable social interactions without always being seen as a freak lol.

First Aid is really good since magical healing is less effective on low essence characters. I also carry stim patches. Btw, am I allowed to use multiple stim patches or just one per set of wounds? Afaik it doesn't count as first aid and there are no rules against it.

[Charybdis]

I'm playing a tank style character right now with 2 cyber limbs, 2 cyber legs and a cyber torso(all alphaware). Although we play with a house rule that stun damage from physical damage bullets will not drop me. This is because it seems very silly that I can have tons of armor and potentially go down to 2 bullets via stun. So instead, once my stun reaches 1 box we put all overflow damage into my physical track. This allows my tanking style to work and in many fights I still get very low or go down so I think it's pretty balanced. Also, my penalties from damage can reach very high levels which does cripple my character pretty badly. I'm planning on  getting a pain editor once I can afford it.

As for race selection, I think any race you like is fine. Troll is the obvious choice though. I went with elf because I wanted 8 charisma so I could still have reasonable social interactions without always being seen as a freak lol.

First Aid is really good since magical healing is less effective on low essence characters. I also carry stim patches. Btw, am I allowed to use multiple stim patches or just one per set of wounds? Afaik it doesn't count as first aid and there are no rules against it.

Recommend Trauma Damper and Platelets.

You have an incredibly generous GM. The reason Stun damage will take you out is because the pain overload and shock knock you out just as effectively as actual blood loss.

This is why professional boxers get some minor wounds, but will be knocked out, and 5 minutes later be back up and (groggy) but effectively uninjured.

All the protection they wear in SR4 terms is essentially to:
A) Ensure the pain they inflict is all Stun Damage
B) Ensure that when knocked out, it isn't so damaging as to overflow the PC to dead (especially as they crash to the mat with a second, unresisted impact)

Same for your tank elf. All the armour is to protect against death by blood loss. But bruising and impacts (if not penetration and blood loss) should still knock you out when that stun damage track is filled....

[Shadowjack]

We just don't like it that having a tank style character doesn't accomplish much in terms of battle prowess. Just 2-3 good shots and I'm out of the fight, just like most characters. It doesn't seem worth spending nearly all my essence on cyber limbs with armor upgrades if the armor doesn't help me in battle. Not being killed is nice but there are just 2 of us in most fights taking on as many as 8 so far so with the normal rules I think we would both be dead already. I didn't want to use any house rules, actually, but this rule allows me to actually tank to some extent. Considering the essence and nuyen sacrifices I made, don't you think it's fair that I can take a few more shots before going down?

[Onion Man]

We just don't like it that having a tank style character doesn't accomplish much in terms of battle prowess. Just 2-3 good shots and I'm out of the fight, just like most characters. It doesn't seem worth spending nearly all my essence on cyber limbs with armor upgrades if the armor doesn't help me in battle. Not being killed is nice but there are just 2 of us in most fights taking on as many as 8 so far so with the normal rules I think we would both be dead already. I didn't want to use any house rules, actually, but this rule allows me to actually tank to some extent. Considering the essence and nuyen sacrifices I made, don't you think it's fair that I can take a few more shots before going down?

Sounds like you've decided to play a homebrew in Shadowrun clothing rather than have your GM send you against obstacles you and your partner are reasonably able to overcome.

[Charybdis]

We just don't like it that having a tank style character doesn't accomplish much in terms of battle prowess. Just 2-3 good shots and I'm out of the fight, just like most characters. It doesn't seem worth spending nearly all my essence on cyber limbs with armor upgrades if the armor doesn't help me in battle. Not being killed is nice but there are just 2 of us in most fights taking on as many as 8 so far so with the normal rules I think we would both be dead already. I didn't want to use any house rules, actually, but this rule allows me to actually tank to some extent. Considering the essence and nuyen sacrifices I made, don't you think it's fair that I can take a few more shots before going down?

Err what are they shooting you with?
 - 24 dice (which is easily accomplished) is on average soaking an 8P hit.
 - Armour is on top of whatever your dodge roll is

If you're just standing in the firing line, expecting to soak any and all firepower, you're sadly mistaken. Guns in SR4 are more powerful than Armour (just like today, just dialed up to 11)

Seeing as most non-Street-Sam archtypes (Mage, hacker, rigger etc) are one-shot kills if caught in the open.... being able to take 2-3 hits regularly is a very big deal.

But if you're expecting to regularly soak-to-nothing a full-auto narrow burst, you're in the wrong place. Shadowrun isn't quite that Manga

However the addition of Trauma Dampener and Platelet cells will let you start scrubbing off that stun damage, so you'll take more hits.

And still be a Charisma 8 elf

Edit: Oh, and if outnumbered 4-1 in the open (or 8-2 specificall) the standard option is to surrender. Nobody is that good, and unless you have a
 - distraction planned to divert some attention,
 - Edge/Supreme Initiative to go first and knock out several enemies before their turn
 - Some hard cover to move and hide behind
 - Full defense option out the wazoo and extra IP's to survive....
...unless you have something like that, with those odds in open-ground? You're doomed.... even Prime runners would be looking at surrender...for the moment

[Shadowjack]

We are just starting out in 4e. The last time we played Shadowrun was ages ago in 3e. Basically what happened was in our first battle my character had limited cyberlimb upgrades due to availabilty restrictions during character creation. So I had to go in with a decently weak character before I could afford more upgrades. We fought 2v8 against 100 point gangers and after the first shot of battle I had already taken 5 stun damage. At that point we weren't sure if the damage rules for high armor characters were good so the gm made a house rule on the fly. Keep in mind we are still learning the game and don't understand combat perfectly just yet

I had I think 12 armor dice and 3 body dice at the time. Now I have something like 24 total. Can you explain how dodging works? Based on what you just said I think we might be doing it incorrectly.

Also, first aid and healing magic is usable after each battle you received a new wound, right? Thanks for the help

[Shadowjack]

@ your edit. I had first initiative and we both had 2 IP's. There were no signs they might have more than one at first glance.

[Charybdis]

I had I think 12 armor dice and 3 body dice at the time. Now I have something like 24 total. Can you explain how dodging works? Based on what you just said I think we might be doing it incorrectly.

Also, first aid and healing magic is usable after each battle you received a new wound, right? Thanks for the help

A) If you're planning on getting shot, Body 3 needs to come up
B) Dodging Ranged weapons (ie Bullets) is a Reaction attribute test (plus modifiers like cover, running etc). You get this as a defense roll unless caught by surprise/ambush/sniper
C) There are several threads in the Character Creation forum (including the first comments in this thread) regarding pumping up armour to stratospheric levels. It's not my forte, but there's great advice there, and 30'ish dice isn't tricky to get to.
D) Doesn't matter if they're 100point gangers or Renraku special ops. Attribute plus Skill plus gun = pain.

[Charybdis]

@ your edit. I had first initiative and we both had 2 IP's. There were no signs they might have more than one at first glance.

Gun Bunnies really need to start with 3 Initiative Passes.

Even a mundane ganger with some cheap street drugs can compete with 2 IP's....

[Shadowjack]

My Brother will be getting us more IP's as the game progresses. Right now he can only get us 1 extra. My body is up to 8 now, I think. Okay, I guess we were doing Dodge correctly I'll definitely read this thread more thoroughly and check out the cyberware/bioware you sugggested, thanks a lot!

[Onion Man]

What's limiting him to only 1?

I thought you said elsewhere that he's running a magician and you a full cyber (not exactly a symbiotic partnership, btw).

[Xarin]

What's limiting him to only 1?

I thought you said elsewhere that he's running a magician and you a full cyber (not exactly a symbiotic partnership, btw).

Oh I dunno, a mage casting Increase Reflexes on the cyber can be kinda nice.  Or Improved Invisibilty.  And those counterspell dice are made of gold  Just don't count on much in the way of healing.

[Charybdis]

My Brother will be getting us more IP's as the game progresses. Right now he can only get us 1 extra.

This doesn't sound right.

The Improved Reflexes spell can get you to +3 IP (giving your Elf 4 IP), and from memory only requires a F3 Spell and R3 focus to keep it sustained, all of which is accessible straight out of CharGen.

I'd recommend you post your full build (and maybe your brother's) on a separate thread. You'll get very useful feedback (OK, and some WTF?!) but in the end you'll get many legit ways of being far more durable in combat...