[Charybdis]

Well, not 5 ambidexterity PQs, not if I want to be born rich and have restricted gear...

So, why bother with 6 arms? 
Just hold a big stick with 6 (or 10, or 20) drone-guns slaved to your primary weapon smartlink....

If you're not pulling the trigger yourself anyway, just have a freaky 3-4 arms for fun, but let the portable gun-racked drones do the work for you

[The Big Peat]

While I presume the main intent is being able to take assault cannon rounds on the chin, I'd point out thats of little use if somebody is so unkind as to mind-control/electrocute the Troll, and that not getting hit is better (if not as satisfying).

So what I'd do, if I was building this guy and wanted to be nigh undestroyable, would be to try and get Willpower 5, and the highest damn Reflexes score I could. I would also be rocking Gymnastics to the max with a Synthacardium.

In other words, not so much a Troll tank, as a Dancing Troll.... on rollerskates.

[Makki]

So my player wants "A Tank"

There's a tank called LAV-103 "Striker" in Mil-spec Tech. With Restricted Gear one can get it at chargen, it's 16F and costs 72k...

[UmaroVI]

Active defenses are somewhat shaky on a tank. As soon as you burn an action to Full Defense, anyone who's smart will stop targeting you and start targeting your friends. Passive dodging (high Reaction Reflexes and high Unarmed to block, maybe even Two Weapon Style to full melee block and also attack at the same time.

You cannot afford to put all your eggs in the dodging basket, though, because a lot of stuff can easily bypass even a large dodge pool. It's a good idea to have some eggs in there, though.

[Xarin]

Simplest way to go I think is Troll with high body stat and stack armor like no tomorrow.

Form-fitting full suit, Camo suit over that, helmet and maybe a nice shield for those low-subtlety times.  Add the non-conductive armor mod to the form-fitting to help with annoying shock weapons.  Have a strong willpower and at least decent charisma (Composure is your friend) and maybe Magic Resistance PQ.

Full cyberlimbs are a less-then-ideal option for this, in my opinion.  They're excessively costly and under core rules cannot get higher then Body 6 without a cybertorso, and you'll be spending a fortune just trying to get them up to par with a troll.  A fortune you could be spending on things like Platelette factories, Trauma Dampers, Damage Compensators, Bone Lacing, etc etc.


Now, once you get Arsenal and the Companion you get a few more really nice tank options.

Change out the Troll for a Formori metavariant.  Arcane Arrester is great for magic tanking, and +1 Body beats +1 innate armor.

And again for the low-subtlety / "Look at ME!" end of things, use the Restricted Gear PQ and grab you a nice suit of Heavy Mil-Spec full body armor + helmet.  Just that suit + Body 10 is 28 base dice on ballistic damage resistance tests.  And having a hulking formori in power armor bearing down on you (or anywhere in your line of sight, really) is going to be rather attention-grabbing for the tank angle.

For more subtle times, you can stack on full discreet versions of the SecureTech PPP, full suit Form-Fitting armor, and a nice heavy armor coat / camo suit / whatever tickles your fancy.  Not as beefy as the mil-spec or with all the extra goodies, but still very sturdy and about as low-key a trolls get.  And with the high Body you're not even getting encumbered.

Plus it leaves plenty of room at chargen to go heavy dodge as well and still pack some very good punch.

[UmaroVI]

Simplest way to go I think is Troll with high body stat and stack armor like no tomorrow.

Full cyberlimbs are a less-then-ideal option for this, in my opinion.  They're excessively costly and under core rules cannot get higher then Body 6 without a cybertorso, and you'll be spending a fortune just trying to get them up to par with a troll.  A fortune you could be spending on things like Platelette factories, Trauma Dampers, Damage Compensators, Bone Lacing, etc etc.

There are three problems here. The first is that high Body has diminishing returns. Past about 8 body, you simply cannot get that much armor without it being super obvious and not OK to wear around town. Incidentally, MilSpec armor is not actually that great for high-Body trolls; you cannot stack it with anything else, so it cuts off stuff like PPP, which means that if you have 9 or more body and just don't care how obvious you are, you get more armor NOT using milspec. Milspec is good because you DON'T need crazy high body to wear it, so for a 3-4 body dude who wants a suit of not subtle armor it is great.

Second, that's not how cyberlimbs work. You cannot get more than +3 cyberlimb enhancement without a cybertorso. You can get cyberlimb CUSTOMIZATION without a cybertorso. So if you are a troll, you get, say, a leg. Then you customize it for +7 body up to your racial max of 10. Then you slap on an enhancement for +3 more body for a total of 13. Also, you're largely going with cyberlimbs for the Armor enhancement. Finally, cybertorsos are not a bad idea if you are dedicated to being a tank.

Third, of the augmentations you listed, only Trauma Dampeners are a good idea. Platelet Factories only work on P damage, which you will rarely if ever take when you have high armor; stun damage is what will KO you. Damage Compensators are not a bad idea in principle but are vastly overpriced for how much they do. Bone Lacing is similarly overpriced except for very specific punching adept builds; there's better ways to get defense, and nobody else cares about being able to hit people for s/2+3 P for 1.5 essence when they could just get a cyberspur.

[Tsuzua]

Military armor is actually terrible for high body dudes.  It doesn't allow for stacking which becomes more and more important as your body goes up.  Military armor is actually for low body types.  If I was rocking 10 body, I would do SWAT Armor 12/10, SWAT helmet 2/2, Full FFBA 6/2, all securetech pieces 2/6, and a set of gel packs 1/1.  That will give you 23/21 armor or a soak of 33/31.   If you softweave you might be fit in more but honestly you'll running low on options.

Cyberlimbs aren't that horrible expensive and you can customize them up to your natural maximum.  It is annoying how availibiilty caps can get you, but you can still do well by them.  I have some troll cyberarms made up already.

[spoiler]
Primary Limb || Secondary Limb
Body 9 (12) || 10(13)
Agility 4 (7) || 4 (7)
Strength 3 (5) || 3 (5)
Capacity Used: 12/15 || 12/15
Accessories: Body Enhancement 3, Agility Enhancement 3, Armor Enhancement 2, Strength Enhancement 2 || As other limb
[/spoiler]

Since you're mundane, you don't have to alphaware them so they cost only ~60,000Y which isn't much.  Assuming you're a regular troll and have body 5, strength 5, and agility 1 gives you average stats of Body 8, Strength 5, agility 3.  With a 8 body, you rock Armor Jacket 8/6, Full FFBA 6/2, all securetech pieces 2/6, helmet 1/2, and ballistic mask 2/1 for 19/17 worn armor.  With cyberlimbs, that's 23/21 for a total soak check of 32/30 (8 body + 1 pseudo-troll body).  Once you upgrade armor 2 to 3, you'll have 25/23 armor. 

You'll also have an effective 7 agility for rocking two handed heavy weapons though sadly you can't really fit in a gyromount without cutting back some (I suggest on armor honestly).  If you're using the strength giving bonus RC, you'll likely want to get strength 3 for an effective 6 strength as well.

[Xarin]

There are three problems here. The first is that high Body has diminishing returns. Past about 8 body, you simply cannot get that much armor without it being super obvious and not OK to wear around town. Incidentally, MilSpec armor is not actually that great for high-Body trolls; you cannot stack it with anything else, so it cuts off stuff like PPP, which means that if you have 9 or more body and just don't care how obvious you are, you get more armor NOT using milspec. Milspec is good because you DON'T need crazy high body to wear it, so for a 3-4 body dude who wants a suit of not subtle armor it is great.

Heavy milspec with it's helmet is more armor then you can get with most reasonable stacking available, and it still stacks with a shield and skin upgrades. Milspec also adds a lot of capacity for handy tools or weapons.

Body also works against fatigue, toxins (add a R6 respirator and you're 16d6 vs gas attacks, for example), and adds to Physical condition track.  Plus, a high Body works for either armor setup, and you can certainly take both at chargen if you want the flexibility.

Second, that's not how cyberlimbs work. You cannot get more than +3 cyberlimb enhancement without a cybertorso. You can get cyberlimb CUSTOMIZATION without a cybertorso. So if you are a troll, you get, say, a leg. Then you customize it for +7 body up to your racial max of 10. Then you slap on an enhancement for +3 more body for a total of 13. Also, you're largely going with cyberlimbs for the Armor enhancement. Finally, cybertorsos are not a bad idea if you are dedicated to being a tank.

Ahhh I see the problem.  I have the SR4 book, not the 20th version.  SR4 doesn't include customization, you had to get Augmentation for that.  20th includes it as standard.  Ok then, for the OP's core only, cyber limbs are not so bad, but for the cash and Essence, I think you can do better.  Especially since you're maxing it's armor at 2 for Chargen.  4 if you spend 5 BP per limb on Restricted Gear and it's still only going to armor 3 limbs max like that.  And, as mentioned, things like Neurostun gas will completely ignore your cyberlimb's body rating and all your armor anyway until you get a Chem Seal, and even then normal armor is suceptible to dart guns, while milspec isn't.

Third, of the augmentations you listed, only Trauma Dampeners are a good idea. Platelet Factories only work on P damage, which you will rarely if ever take when you have high armor; stun damage is what will KO you. Damage Compensators are not a bad idea in principle but are vastly overpriced for how much they do. Bone Lacing is similarly overpriced except for very specific punching adept builds; there's better ways to get defense, and nobody else cares about being able to hit people for s/2+3 P for 1.5 essence when they could just get a cyberspur.

Bonelacing works against stun damage and direct combat spells (that ignore your armor) and speaking of direct combat spells, platelettes work against those too while also being handy for occassions you might not be socially able to wear a pile of armor.

Military armor is actually terrible for high body dudes.  It doesn't allow for stacking which becomes more and more important as your body goes up.  Military armor is actually for low body types.  If I was rocking 10 body, I would do SWAT Armor 12/10, SWAT helmet 2/2, Full FFBA 6/2, all securetech pieces 2/6, and a set of gel packs 1/1.  That will give you 23/21 armor or a soak of 33/31.   If you softweave you might be fit in more but honestly you'll running low on options.

Milspec has a number of advantages.  Add Mobility upgrade, and a Ballistic shield.  Now you're rockin' 24/20 armor, or 34/30 dice pool with no encumbrance.  And you can add  your choice of +3 strength, gyromounts, an articulated weapon arm, and other very nice goodies that normal armor simply can't get.  The helmet's built-in electronics suite isn't shabby either.  And if you like, you can still stack it further with orthoskin / cyberlimb armor / dermal plating or sheath.  And with Body 10, you can still get away unencumbered while sitting at 37/33 dice pools.  At that range you're taking a panther cannon shot and getting bruised.

Just for giggles, you'd still have 1 Restriced gear option left, so take a Suprathyroid gland for the +1 to all physical stats to bump it up another die.

[Tsuzua]

Milspec has a number of advantages.  Add Mobility upgrade, and a Ballistic shield.  Now you're rockin' 24/20 armor, or 34/30 dice pool with no encumbrance.  And you can add  your choice of +3 strength, gyromounts, an articulated weapon arm, and other very nice goodies that normal armor simply can't get.  The helmet's built-in electronics suite isn't shabby either.  And if you like, you can still stack it further with orthoskin / cyberlimb armor / dermal plating or sheath.  And with Body 10, you can still get away unencumbered while sitting at 37/33 dice pools.  At that range you're taking a panther cannon shot and getting bruised.

Just for giggles, you'd still have 1 Restriced gear option left, so take a Suprathyroid gland for the +1 to all physical stats to bump it up another die.

I must admit I never noticed that shields aren't a type a worn armor and thus do work with military armor.  However, the SWAT setup is still better in my opinion.  It's cheaper, permittable, and adjustable (it scales down well for when you have to meet at a bar or something). 

Really the big advantage of the limb route is that it's only 12 BP for the arms, but you've covered 3 of your attributes.  You might be able to sneak in a secondary skillset as well as being a tank. 

[UmaroVI]

Heavy milspec with it's helmet is more armor then you can get with most reasonable stacking available, and it still stacks with a shield and skin upgrades. Milspec also adds a lot of capacity for handy tools or weapons.

Body also works against fatigue, toxins (add a R6 respirator and you're 16d6 vs gas attacks, for example), and adds to Physical condition track.  Plus, a high Body works for either armor setup, and you can certainly take both at chargen if you want the flexibility.

Yeah, in theory you can afford both. But you're blowing a Restricted Gear for milspec at chargen, and it's also a LOT of money for an unconcealable Forbidden item, and it's only marginally good. 8 body is plenty; past that you start getting into diminishing returns. I'd rather save points by having 8 body, wearing Armor Jacket, FFBA, Gel Packs, PPP, and a Helmet, and then getting plenty more armor from cyberlimbs, and then spend those points I saved (and all the money saved by not buying highly accessorized Milspec armor with the cost hit for Troll-sizing it) defending against other stuff.

Ahhh I see the problem.  I have the SR4 book, not the 20th version.  SR4 doesn't include customization, you had to get Augmentation for that.  20th includes it as standard.  Ok then, for the OP's core only, cyber limbs are not so bad, but for the cash and Essence, I think you can do better.  Especially since you're maxing it's armor at 2 for Chargen.  4 if you spend 5 BP per limb on Restricted Gear and it's still only going to armor 3 limbs max like that.  And, as mentioned, things like Neurostun gas will completely ignore your cyberlimb's body rating and all your armor anyway until you get a Chem Seal, and even then normal armor is suceptible to dart guns, while milspec isn't.

Cyberlimbs are very, VERY cost efficient. Hugely so. The 2 armor at chargen thing is annoying but it's a whopping 900Y to buy armor 3, so you can do it with your first paycheck.

Milspec is absolutely not something you can count on using all, or even most of the time. Parading around in Forbidden gear that you cannot hide is NOT a good plan in a lot of situations. Chemical Protection will help you some, so will higher natural body. If your GM uses a lot of toxins, I might even consider a Toxin Extractor, expensive though they are. Now that said, Milspec is nice for the side benefits it gives and if I hit a point of "lolz, nuyen" I might buy some for those situations where I don't care how Forbidden my gear obviously is, but I wouldn't build a character who counts on it and I sure wouldn't be blowing a Restricted Gear on it.

Bonelacing works against stun damage and direct combat spells (that ignore your armor) and speaking of direct combat spells, platelettes work against those too while also being handy for occassions you might not be socially able to wear a pile of armor.

Bonelacing works against SOME direct combat spells, but not against the go-to direct combat spell, Stunbolt/Stunball. Same for platelet factories. Bone Lacing does help you resist stun damage from weapons, but it is super cost inefficient. 1.5 Essence for +3? Yeah, no thanks.

[Xarin]

I must admit I never noticed that shields aren't a type a worn armor and thus do work with military armor.  However, the SWAT setup is still better in my opinion.  It's cheaper, permittable, and adjustable (it scales down well for when you have to meet at a bar or something). 

Always a good thing.  And why I advocate the higher Body, as it suits both setups, and you can certainly own both to a large degree.  Milspec caps out a bit higher and offers a number of unique armor enhancement options that can really get you going.  Mobility not only raises the bar for encumbrance, but also helps Running skill.  As do the Hydrolic Jacks you can add in.  And the +3 Strength enhancement (which can take you beyond your augmented max stat).  Stack in some Synthacardium and Athletics skill group and you can blitz into combat pretty dang fast if you're the melee type.  You can even fit the cyber spurs in the armor itself, making one less illegal mod to explain to airport secuirty when you're on the down-low.

If you want pure tank, this gives you more oompf.  More practical tank will likely take the other routes, but won't be able to reach the same levels.  Full Body Armor is also Restricted, so there's some potential issues there as well.  Easier to get around then milspec's forbidden, but milspec offers a bigger payout for your effort / investment.  Not suitable to all campaigns, but that's something for the GM to decide.

Really the big advantage of the limb route is that it's only 12 BP for the arms, but you've covered 3 of your attributes.  You might be able to sneak in a secondary skillset as well as being a tank.

Cyberlimbs help on averages, but not in all situations, and are useless against shots called other places then the limb.  For cheaper you could get bone lacing and muscle replacement, even alpha grade if you like.  Or take the Bioware equivalents to save on the Essence even more.  And you still get a big boost to 3 attributes, but it's applicable to virtually every situtation instead of just some.  And unlike the Cyberlimbs, it's applicable to your skull, too.  A full body conversion gets around this, but even using a custom cybersuite it'll run you well over 200k to get it without zeroing out your essence, and those limbs eat up essence fast.

Don't get me wrong, I like cyberlimbs, even have some full-conversion characters, but I think other mods can be more useful for the applicable costs in terms of raw stats for tanking.  Limbs main draw really is what you can install in them, like smuggling compartments, weapons, gizmos, recoil comp gyros, etc.  And a lot of those can be duplicated in milspec armor mods.  The basic stat / armor is done better by other mods for standard chargen because the other mods work all the time, while limbs are negated every time somebody makes a Called Shot, which literally everybody can do.

Bonelacing works against SOME direct combat spells, but not against the go-to direct combat spell, Stunbolt/Stunball. Same for platelet factories. Bone Lacing does help you resist stun damage from weapons, but it is super cost inefficient. 1.5 Essence for +3? Yeah, no thanks.

You need to re-read them then.  Stunbolt/ball does stun damage, which is damage resisted by Body unless the source of the damage specifically says otherwise.  And they don't say otherwise.  Willpower is used for the reistsance test against them, but Body soaks the actual damage.  So yes, Bone Lacing and Platelette factories do apply.  So does a Trauma Damper   And the Formori's Arcane Arrester ability.  And if you want to save on essence, check out Bone Density!

[UmaroVI]

You need to re-read them then.  Stunbolt/ball does stun damage, which is damage resisted by Body unless the source of the damage specifically says otherwise.  And they don't say otherwise.  Willpower is used for the reistsance test against them, but Body soaks the actual damage.  So yes, Bone Lacing and Platelette factories do apply.  So does a Trauma Damper   And the Formori's Arcane Arrester ability.  And if you want to save on essence, check out Bone Density!

Uh, no. You never actually make a damage resistance check against Stunbolt/Stunball. You oppose Spellcasting+Magic with Willpower+Counterspelling, then you either fully resist (net hits 0 or less) or take Force+Net Hits in damage. You do NOT then get to soak that damage with anything - you just take it.

Trauma Dampener does apply. That's why it is the one of those wares that I liked.

Arcane Arrester is indeed excellent; it's the only thing that will put more than a mild speedbump in a good mage's ability to oneshot anyone they want.

Also, review how called shots to bypass armor work. You get to suck down a dice pool penalty equal to the total amount of armor of the person you are shooting at. If someone is butt naked but has 3 armor armor on both arms and legs, you get to take a -12 penalty to bypass their armor. A proper indestructitroll, and you're looking at something like -30 dice. Not a very useful tactic.

You can also call shots for up to -4 to hit and +4 DV which is often a good tactic, but doesn't bypass armor.

EDIT: Just to preempt an argument on how Direct spells work: see SR4A page 204, right at the top left. "This Opposed Test is done in place of the standard Damage Resistance test."

And one moooooore thing: Platelet factories only help against actual Physical damage. They don't do jack against Stun damage even when you DO resist it with body. If your armor is high enough to convert something to stun, Platelet Factories do nothing.

[Xarin]

You need to re-read them then.  Stunbolt/ball does stun damage, which is damage resisted by Body unless the source of the damage specifically says otherwise.  And they don't say otherwise.  Willpower is used for the reistsance test against them, but Body soaks the actual damage.  So yes, Bone Lacing and Platelette factories do apply.  So does a Trauma Damper   And the Formori's Arcane Arrester ability.  And if you want to save on essence, check out Bone Density!

Uh, no. You never actually make a damage resistance check against Stunbolt/Stunball. You oppose Spellcasting+Magic with Willpower+Counterspelling, then you either fully resist (net hits 0 or less) or take Force+Net Hits in damage. You do NOT then get to soak that damage with anything - you just take it.

Ah, another 20th change.  You are correct.  The 20th version added the line that it replaced the damage resistance test, while in SR4 that was decidedly not the case.

Arcane Arrester is indeed excellent; it's the only thing that will put more than a mild speedbump in a good mage's ability to oneshot anyone they want.

No arguement there.

Also, review how called shots to bypass armor work. You get to suck down a dice pool penalty equal to the total amount of armor of the person you are shooting at. If someone is butt naked but has 3 armor armor on both arms and legs, you get to take a -12 penalty to bypass their armor. A proper indestructitroll, and you're looking at something like -30 dice. Not a very useful tactic.

You can also call shots for up to -4 to hit and +4 DV which is often a good tactic, but doesn't bypass armor.

*checks again* You are again correct, my appologies.  My GMs have been using the 4th bullet point to be able to bypass any armor that doesn't cover a particular area with a modifier based on the size of the area.  So a called shot to the head, you take a -4 or -5 to hit the head, but bypass the armor jacket (the full body form fitting still applies as it covers the head).  Probably a gameplay artifact from 3rd edition.

The new called shots do make piecemeal armor more attractive, certainly.

and I need to update my core book it seems :/  Bugger.  My wallet is sad now.

[UmaroVI]

Yeah, all those "Gotcha!" rules and small changes are a pain.

[Xarin]

Yeah, all those "Gotcha!" rules and small changes are a pain.

Yeah, I'd been under the impression it was "clarrifications" not "piles of errata".  Ah well, another book on the queue to pick up from amazon.

At anyrate, for the OP, we can agree a Formori is good (or arcane arrester changeling), stacked armor is good, 8+ body isn't a bad thing.  Something to boost your reaction and athletic / dodge skills.  High Willpower, maybe Magic Resistance PQ if you have the points to spare from your 35 cap (not often for me).

I'd say you can build a solid tank any which way you please based on those criteria.  Be it cyberlimbs, other mods, funky armor, whatever.  Might not be totally min-max but on a real run, min-max tends to get nailed to the wall in my experience by GMs hitting thier weak spots.  More well-rounded is better.

Also, make friends with a mage that has decent Counterspell skill, and either turn off your wireless or get chummy with a good hacker.