[kirk]

For fun, I've used the surge rules to turn humans into metas. When you do that, all the metas cost less than they should.  Yes, even the Dwarf, who costs net 65 BP to "make".

Positives: Metagenic improvements at +20 each (Bod, Str x 2, Will) [+80]; Thermographic Vision [+5]; Resist pathogen/toxin at +2 [+20]. (NOTE: you can't get more than +1 by the book, I doubled the cost for the +2) Total +105

Negatives: Impaired Attributes at -5 each (Body, React x 2) [-15]; Deformity (size, severe) [-25]. Total -40

I don't have a good fix, myself, but it's pretty obvious that all the metas are (depending on what you want to do with them) cheap bonuses for players.

[Preacher]

It does seem a little off that the other Metatypes get an effective bonus to Attributes, whilst Humans don't. That said, is raising the number of BP that a Human can spend on Attributes the answer, or would the way to go be to lower the number of BPs that the other Metatypes can spend? For instance, all Metatypes get to spend 200BP on Attributes and Metatype combined, maybe?

Raising the number of BP that humans can spend on core Attributes sounds like a much better solution.  The problem is that humans can't spend enough on core Attributes.  Imposing limits on metahumans would only give them the same problem, not fix the problem with humans.

The fix I came up with some time ago was simple.  Humans get the racial ability of Versatility, which is effectively Metagenic Improvement for any two attributes of choice and Aptitude for one skill of choice.  This replaces the +1 bonus to Edge they normally get.  They still have to pay BPs/Karma to take advantage of it, but that's covered by the "cheapness" of the race.

The other metahuman races still have advantages -- significant ones in some cases -- but this change allows Humans to excel at anything they wish to do, while the other races are 'limited' to a smaller subset of professions/concepts in which they excel.

[Phylos Fett]

It does seem a little off that the other Metatypes get an effective bonus to Attributes, whilst Humans don't. That said, is raising the number of BP that a Human can spend on Attributes the answer, or would the way to go be to lower the number of BPs that the other Metatypes can spend? For instance, all Metatypes get to spend 200BP on Attributes and Metatype combined, maybe?

Raising the number of BP that humans can spend on core Attributes sounds like a much better solution.  The problem is that humans can't spend enough on core Attributes.  Imposing limits on metahumans would only give them the same problem, not fix the problem with humans.

I guess I just think that it'd be better for starting characters to start as such - I'd rather them be underpowered at CharGen, than the alternative - so I don't really perceive this as a problem, more as a solution. YMMV.

[All4BigGuns]

Honestly, I play Humans more than any other metatype personally. I just prefer them, but I do think that they do need more than just +1 Edge granted them to put them a bit better off than they are now.

The next time I'm the one running, I may just offer that idea someone put in there about increasing some of the BP limits on different categories to encourage Human characters. I always get annoyed when someone refuses to play Human because they are human--I actually know someone whom that is their main reason for such.

[FastJack]

Honestly, I play Humans more than any other metatype personally. I just prefer them, but I do think that they do need more than just +1 Edge granted them to put them a bit better off than they are now.

The next time I'm the one running, I may just offer that idea someone put in there about increasing some of the BP limits on different categories to encourage Human characters. I always get annoyed when someone refuses to play Human because they are human--I actually know someone whom that is their main reason for such.

I don't know, I think that the fact that their +1 Edge and the only 0 BP race balances out against the others. 0 BP means they can have 100,000¥ more gear or 2 ranks in a Skill Group or Magician and Mentor Spirit qualities; whereas it's tougher for an Ork to get those since they use the 20 BP for their metatype.

[kirk]

Honestly, I play Humans more than any other metatype personally. I just prefer them, but I do think that they do need more than just +1 Edge granted them to put them a bit better off than they are now.

The next time I'm the one running, I may just offer that idea someone put in there about increasing some of the BP limits on different categories to encourage Human characters. I always get annoyed when someone refuses to play Human because they are human--I actually know someone whom that is their main reason for such.

I don't know, I think that the fact that their +1 Edge and the only 0 BP race balances out against the others. 0 BP means they can have 100,000¥ more gear or 2 ranks in a Skill Group or Magician and Mentor Spirit qualities; whereas it's tougher for an Ork to get those since they use the 20 BP for their metatype.

If the human is willing to have 1 BOD and STR, then your point is valid.  If you're unwilling to have 1s in either, you lost that advantage.

[FastJack]

Honestly, I play Humans more than any other metatype personally. I just prefer them, but I do think that they do need more than just +1 Edge granted them to put them a bit better off than they are now.

The next time I'm the one running, I may just offer that idea someone put in there about increasing some of the BP limits on different categories to encourage Human characters. I always get annoyed when someone refuses to play Human because they are human--I actually know someone whom that is their main reason for such.

I don't know, I think that the fact that their +1 Edge and the only 0 BP race balances out against the others. 0 BP means they can have 100,000¥ more gear or 2 ranks in a Skill Group or Magician and Mentor Spirit qualities; whereas it's tougher for an Ork to get those since they use the 20 BP for their metatype.

If the human is willing to have 1 BOD and STR, then your point is valid.  If you're unwilling to have 1s in either, you lost that advantage.

But the human also has a benefit to CHA and LOG over the Ork.

[kirk]

Honestly, I play Humans more than any other metatype personally. I just prefer them, but I do think that they do need more than just +1 Edge granted them to put them a bit better off than they are now.

The next time I'm the one running, I may just offer that idea someone put in there about increasing some of the BP limits on different categories to encourage Human characters. I always get annoyed when someone refuses to play Human because they are human--I actually know someone whom that is their main reason for such.

I don't know, I think that the fact that their +1 Edge and the only 0 BP race balances out against the others. 0 BP means they can have 100,000¥ more gear or 2 ranks in a Skill Group or Magician and Mentor Spirit qualities; whereas it's tougher for an Ork to get those since they use the 20 BP for their metatype.

If the human is willing to have 1 BOD and STR, then your point is valid.  If you're unwilling to have 1s in either, you lost that advantage.

But the human also has a benefit to CHA and LOG over the Ork.

No, the human has the POTENTIAL benefit to CHA and LOG. If each want to go to max, the human can go higher.

The ork gets 50 points of BP locked in for 20 BP, and suffers the potential of 20 BP at the top end of two less frequently softcapped attributes.

[Phylos Fett]

Honestly, I think that SR4A has almost killed Mundane Human.

Which is a shame, considering...

[CanRay]

Soooooooooooooooo...  The Humanis Policlub had a point all along?   

[kirk]

For fun...

Excluding the surge class BP cost (class iii) here's the cost of "building" the metas using the surge rules. Had to ignore the "only once" in a couple of places. The troll has both deformity for the horns and tusks and build, progeria to represent the early maturation and death, and striking skin pigmentation. You can see that removing those costs (25, 30, and 5 respectively) would make the troll more expensive than the ork.

Ork: 95 BP
Dwarf: 65 BP
Elf: 65 BP
Troll:  90 BP

Just another data point for consideration.

[Glyph]

Humans are actually a bit better off than they were in SR3 - under the old Priority system, mundane dwarves and orks essentially got their race (with its attendant bonuses) for "free".  As I said, it only really comes up if you want to play a human who needs high Attributes in both physical and mental Attributes: sammie/face or something similar.  And even for that, you can get restricted gear and a suprathyroid gland to get you there.

In practice, they are fairly balanced, if you play metatypes to their strengths.  An elven sammie/face will have soft-maxed Agility and Charisma of 6 and 7 instead of 5 and 5, but have an Edge of 2 compared to the Edge of 6 that the human will have, for example.


SURGE costs are not really a good baseline for comparison to metatype costs.  Metatypes are a "package deal", where you get penalties that you would rather not have, boosts to "meh" Attributes, penalties to important Attributes, and things you don't need (like low-light or thermographic vision when you are getting cybereyes for that character).


To bring this back on topic, my advice for character creation, RE: metatypes will be:
Do look at metatypes to see which will be best for a certain role (elf for face or marksman, human for Mr. Lucky, troll for a melee tank, etc.).

Don't feel compelled to always take the most optimal pick, though.  While the metatypes have their niches, they are still functional outside of them.  Want to play a smooth-talking troll or an elf who punches people out?  Go for it!

[All4BigGuns]

Edge of 6?! What the heck? Edge might be nice at times, but going above 3 or 4 is a waste of points in my opinion. Why sink that many points into something that is finite in how often it's useful? Just stick with moderate to low Edge for emergencies and use your points elsewhere.

[CanRay]

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. 

[ARC]

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. 

Not to mention, edge is your extra lives stat.