[baronspam]

I could make the argument that to be even be a runner, one would need to be able to find a fixer and this means fitting into one portion of society.  This doesn't make much a difference for groups (where the face is your in), but my real defense of the Etiquette 1 is that your group has to fit together with your group.

 

Again, the etiquette skill isn't basic social abilities.  It is assumed that all characters have that unless they have a quality that says they don't.  Etiquette is the ability to manipulate people by playing a social role.  Most people walking around out there don't have have any ranks in it, and I can think of a ton of character concepts (sprawl ganger, jarhead fresh out of the military, ace hacker who isn't that good with people) that probably shouldn't have it from an rp point of view.

As for how they found a fixer- a friend, mentor, or partner introduced them, the fixer found them (always on the lookout for good talent) or they just asked around.  Etiquette isn't the same things as streetwise.  One can have street knowledge or investigation skill in spades without having etiquette.  Consider a character who is an ex-cop.  He might have a ton of street knowledge, but because he always had a badge to work with he walks, talks, smells, and looks like a cop, and it accustomed to beating answers out of people instead of talking them out. A character can know the score, they just aren't very good at sweet talking some one or making some one think you are something that you they not.

I am not saying the Etiquette isn't a useful skill, but you seem to think that someone without it is simply unable to function, to the point that they couldn't get along with other members of their group.  I think you are looking at the skill the wrong way (in fact the nature of shadowrun skills the wrong way) and that there are many characters who would not necessarily have it.

 

[Seeker]

I understand everyone's view.  Different strokes.  My group has seen the rules, and with an exception for my view on electricity rules, there was no argument against any of it.

One of them brought up a point, and if I remember correctly, that one point of etiquette was free in earlier editions?  But that was back when etiquette was specific to the culture.  Maybe this is where my view on the necessity of this comes from, but it is still there.

[Cass100199]

Etiquette is the ability to manipulate people by playing a social role.

Interesting. Book doesn't say it that way. Maybe people have different interpretations....

[nakano]

Re: Am I being too harsh?"

Honestly, the only time I think a GM is being too harsh is when the players feel that way.  The game is supposed to be fun, if rules changes and enforcement make it not fun, then it is too harsh.  Some players love to get screwed by their Johnsons and earn every little bit.  Some just want to kick back over beer and pretzels. 

Sounds like your players are cool with the rules, good enough IMO.


Edited for punctuation. 

[CanRay]

I've always been of the mind that the GM is being too harsh when he hits the players with a newspaper...

...

That has an iron bar in the center.

[John Shull]

I could make the argument that to be even be a runner, one would need to be able to find a fixer and this means fitting into one portion of society.  This doesn't make much a difference for groups (where the face is your in), but my real defense of the Etiquette 1 is that your group has to fit together with your group.

 

Again, the etiquette skill isn't basic social abilities.  It is assumed that all characters have that unless they have a quality that says they don't.  Etiquette is the ability to manipulate people by playing a social role.  Most people walking around out there don't have have any ranks in it, and I can think of a ton of character concepts (sprawl ganger, jarhead fresh out of the military, ace hacker who isn't that good with people) that probably shouldn't have it from an rp point of view.

As for how they found a fixer- a friend, mentor, or partner introduced them, the fixer found them (always on the lookout for good talent) or they just asked around.  Etiquette isn't the same things as streetwise.  One can have street knowledge or investigation skill in spades without having etiquette.  Consider a character who is an ex-cop.  He might have a ton of street knowledge, but because he always had a badge to work with he walks, talks, smells, and looks like a cop, and it accustomed to beating answers out of people instead of talking them out. A character can know the score, they just aren't very good at sweet talking some one or making some one think you are something that you they not.

I am not saying the Etiquette isn't a useful skill, but you seem to think that someone without it is simply unable to function, to the point that they couldn't get along with other members of their group.  I think you are looking at the skill the wrong way (in fact the nature of shadowrun skills the wrong way) and that there are many characters who would not necessarily have it.

I can see both sides of the equation.  No one will hire a uncouth loudmouth for illegal activity on a handshake deal that could blow up in their face and get themselves busted.  A paranoid Johnson could easily geek a squad he didn't like in the parking lot over a bad feeling much less some clown he thinks just disrespected him.  Then there is the House rule, not your house but Greg House.  Someone so socially venemous that most have to stop an impulse to smack him upon meeting him.  Money seeks him out as he is the expert in his field and if you want the best you have to deal with it.  Basically when you are the absolute best you get to be a wide receiver prima donna, at least til you lose a step.  The House exception is the only one but a powerful one to the uncouth rule.  When your the only game in town for something people need everyone else will grin and bare it til they don't have to.   

[Seeker]

I can see both sides of the equation.  No one will hire a uncouth loudmouth for illegal activity on a handshake deal that could blow up in their face and get themselves busted.  A paranoid Johnson could easily geek a squad he didn't like in the parking lot over a bad feeling much less some clown he thinks just disrespected him.  Then there is the House rule, not your house but Greg House.  Someone so socially venemous that most have to stop an impulse to smack him upon meeting him.  Money seeks him out as he is the expert in his field and if you want the best you have to deal with it.  Basically when you are the absolute best you get to be a wide receiver prima donna, at least til you lose a step.  The House exception is the only one but a powerful one to the uncouth rule.  When your the only game in town for something people need everyone else will grin and bare it til they don't have to.   

Pretty much spot on how I see it.  After hearing a few viewpoints, and looking at the rules a bit more, I can say that I may lean more towards just defaulting with total charisma when not an opposed social check.

[DeciusRagnos]

OK sooooo I took a different approach at Character Gen.

Nothing over Availablity 8 unless cleared by me and with good reason

No Contact ratings above 4 and required at least 2 contacts per person

No more than 2 initiative passes per PC

If you try and take a negative quality that doesn't really pertain to you or something dumb like a Severe Allergy to Comet Dust
I'm going to make that situation happen and your going to regret it.

I have final say on what is and is not broken/out of control.

Does this seem too harsh?

[UmaroVI]

Not if you want mages to be even more better than everyone else than they already are.

[DeciusRagnos]

I don't understand.

[Onion Man]

I don't understand.

Mages can circumvent your restrictions pretty easily, like by taking the improved reflexes spell and a magical tradition where they'll have a beefy drain pool.

@Everyone: What's with there being so many GMs that feel the need to come up with some sort of custom restrictions on character creation?  Has it never occurred to you that the present character creation rules are the product of hours of playtesting and game balance exercises?  Tweaking character creation, like all other house rules, should be carefully evaluated before you do it.  If you can't truthfully answer yes to the following questions you've just made a bad rule (asking if you're being too harsh is a sign that you can't answer yes to at least one of them).

1) Does this rule make the game more fun for the players?
2) Does this rule make the game less complicated to play?
3) Does this rule reduce the paperwork burden for players/GM?

If those aren't 3 solid yeses, you're making a house-rule mistake.

[Cass100199]

What's with there being so many GMs that feel the need to come up with some sort of custom restrictions on character creation?

I think you're reading into it a little bit. We all have our ideas of what's "reasonable" and "logical" in the game. For me, I don't think high end cyber and weapons are a reasonable thing for a beginning runner to have. In the end, we all make tweaks to make the game fit what we''re picturing in our head. I know that when I come up with a campaign, I usually come up with some sort of background framework to give the players direction. It may not tweak the character creation process, but it definitely puts some parameters on the character concept. I just find it's easier if you focus your Mountain Dew and Monster addled players in a particular direction instead of letting them fly where their ADHD minds will take them.

[Onion Man]

Every character creation tweak that limits gear is a tweak that favors magicrun.

I always read a long ways into games, particularly rules, and particularly the effect that rules will have on the metagame and the clerical game, and have good reason to do so.

[baronspam]

OK sooooo I took a different approach at Character Gen.

Nothing over Availablity 8 unless cleared by me and with good reason

No Contact ratings above 4 and required at least 2 contacts per person

No more than 2 initiative passes per PC

If you try and take a negative quality that doesn't really pertain to you or something dumb like a Severe Allergy to Comet Dust
I'm going to make that situation happen and your going to regret it.

I have final say on what is and is not broken/out of control.

Does this seem too harsh?

I don't think this is too harsh, just have some systems(which could be as simple as talking to the guy and telling him not to do it) in place in case you have a magician with a spell book full of health spells to get around your IP and Stat maximum.  I think caps are a better approach than low BP to encourage low power games.  Low BP characters just tend to end up hyperspecialized.

[Teknodragon]

I've played in a couple rather fun games where the GM limited us by stating how many BP we could spend in given areas, as well as required stuff for 'free'. Rather than limited dice pools or gear, we had limited (or in some cases, expanded) options in resources spent on them.

Oh, and Matrix users get 3 initiative passes when in hot-sim; you'd have to ban Hot-sim modules. This also majorly gimps hackers.