[Charybdis]

Read it again. That's advice for the realistic part of the campaign. Grit is != Realistic and vice versa. The OP said he is creating a gritty and realistic campaign, hence the adding of advice for a realistic campaign.

Indeed... have edited my post above (where I meant to write Realistic, but had a brain-fart and wrote gritty)

Realistic is always a relative term when dealing with Sci-Fi (not just SR4 ), but again, it's one thing to have the average Joe thrust into a shadowrun (eg Eagle Eye w/ Shie LeBoeuf) vs an otherwise skilled, but hesitant ex-soldier (eg Rambo: first Blood).

The players can be either, and still retain as much grit and 'realism' as the campaign requires.

[Crash_00]

I've never been able to actually watch the Rambo movies (just the wrong flavor of bad action movie for me), but my go to example of realistic for an action based game is Die Hard (the original). Its got a lot of insane stunts in there that should not work (fewer than most action movies though), but John McClain and the be on even footing. What does John have on his side, luck (edge).

What I was saying is that trained shadowrunners have good skills. Trained Police Officers should have good skills. Trained Soldiers should have good skills. By RAW (not gritty, not realistic) this is not the case, corporate security teams are the equivalent of a basically a 260 BP character, horrible at their job (they default Perception checks), and have no ware or ways of augmenting their abilities (vision mods, drugs, ect.). Yes the GM can change this, and that's exactly what I'm suggesting for a more realistic campaign.

Whether the player is playing an average joe or a soldier is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I'm suggesting an increase to NPC's power and ability to perform their jobs.

Low Power = Characters are  more restricted and/or more limited.
High Power = Characters are less restricted and/or less limited.
Grit = Characters having to deal with the consequences of their actions, but strays toward the darker dingier side of consequences. (More likely to get addicted to chems from being in Intensive Care for a month than have to worry about repairing your credit score)
Realistic = Characters have to deal with consequences and are closer to the world. (While this can include having them deal with their credit scores, most players probably won't care for that type of game. Usually this type is achieved by narrowing the gap between the NPCs and PCs so that they don't feel so detached from the world).

You can have multiples (For instance limiting the players and bringing up the NPC power level would be a Low-Powered Realistic campaign) but that doesn't mean that every single one has to have multiple elements (having normal characters that regularly face corporate security and law enforcement at the same level as them doesn't restrict the players in any way).

There is nothing more realistic in Shadowrun than knowing that the ganger with a light pistol could get a lucky shot and take you down (as opposed to the extremely ridiculously lucky shot that the GM edged to take you down that it is normally) and that trained Knight Errant personnel will take you down if you toe out of line. Realism is meant not to restrict characters actions, but to make them truly think about the consequences based on what the world can and will do to them for it.

How exactly does beefing up NPCs to a realistic level make a campaign low powered?

[Charybdis]

How exactly does beefing up NPCs to a realistic level make a campaign low powered?

*shrugs* I think you're trying to 'fix' something that's not broken.

SR4A p.281 - Corporate Security. (aka Rent-a-Cop)
Average Joe (Most attributes at 3, including agility), Professional Training ((Ranged/Melee at 3), with an Armoured vest and an SMG.
Primary Dice Pool: 6.
This is your basic Night-watchmen, whose job description is: Security guards receive just enough training and equipment to respond to incidental street violence

SR4A p.282 - Lone Star Squad Member
Above Average Joe( Attributes of 3-4), Professional Training (Ranged/Melee at 3)

LoneStar Lieutenant:
Key attributes at 6, Professional training (Ranged/Melee at 4), Better equipped (Augmentations, Smartlink)

Your minimum-wage security guard today is a guy with a d-cell mag-lite and a bunch of keys.
In SR4, the same guy has an armoured vest and an SMG.

Your standard beat-cop today has a 9mm, taser and a nightstick
In SR4, they also get armoured jackets, stun batons and combat drugs

I think where we're arguing is on the defintion of Realistic.
You seem to be of the opinion that this means that 'Runners are regular Joe Average forced into Shadowrunning.'
I alternatively believe these can be highly-skilled individuals (ex-Soldiers, Hackers, Awakened etc) whom have turned to crime for one reason or another (and you gave a list of really good examples in this regard).

I think the tone of 'Realism' is less-easily defined than just by power levels. It's about how you make them feel. Are the Players IMMERSED in their characters? Are they SCARED in a firefight? And I agree with you, do they fear the CONSEQUENCES of their actions?

I'm with you on all these points. I just don't think that the power-level discussion is a factor in the realism of the campaign.

I mean seriously, we have AI's in the Matrix (Hell, we have the Matrix for a start ), we have drone/gunships providing 24/7 surveillance and security, a Dragon president just got assassinated and the kid-next door just got a degree in Thamaturgy from MIT. Realism is already a stretch in description, so it all comes back to the player experience WITHIN the campaign... not the power-level of the campaign itself...

[Crash_00]

*shrugs* I think you're trying to 'fix' something that's not broken.

I'm not trying to fix anything. I'm offering a suggested way to take the standard shadowrun rules, and play them in a way that makes for a different feeling campaign. Its not broken by any means the way it is and I never claimed it was.

I think where we're arguing is on the defintion of Realistic.
You seem to be of the opinion that this means that 'Runners are regular Joe Average forced into Shadowrunning.'

I alternatively believe these can be highly-skilled individuals (ex-Soldiers, Hackers, Awakened etc) whom have turned to crime for one reason or another (and you gave a list of really good examples in this regard).

I think what we're running into here is that you seem to think that the standard SR campaign is realistic. I don't think that realistic runners are average joes, I just believe that they begin their careers as average and develop just like everyone else, on an even level. By standard they don't. Take the Lonestar Lieutenant (a grizzled veteran that has worked the beat for several years and no where near four hundred build points.) A Runner that does a run a month for one year will wipe the floor with him (400 build points and lets say 70 karma).

I don't really get where you're coming from. How, in any way, does beefing up the opposition make a highly skilled runner any less highly skilled. That's like saying that since SWAT snipers are highly skilled, Ranger snipers are no longer highly skilled.

If the OP is asking for help making his game Gritty and Realistic, this implies that he doesn't feel the standard campaign and rules are realistic and is looking for a way to make it more so.

A Lonestar Officer that has been on the job for ten years should in a realistic world have the abilities related to his job at the same level as a Runner that has been running for ten years.

Your definition of a realistic campaign seems to just be a definition of good GMing. A good GM can do this in a high powered pink mohawk game where he hands out Edge like candy.

In standard shadowrun there are some people out there as good as you and some out their that are better.

In realistic shadowrun there are a lot of people out there as good as you and quite a few out there that are better.

Its not about trying to realistically define the sci-fi elements of the game as much as giving the setting a hard-boiled feel and bringing the elements that we know from everyday to the forefront. One of the biggest elements of the average person's life in today's society is competition, and almost everyone knows of many someones better than them.

Your realistic characters exist perfectly fine within my suggested realistic campaign, and you still didn't answer how it makes it low powered. Again, I'm not trying to fix anything, just give an alternate path for a different feel.

[Charybdis]

Your realistic characters exist perfectly fine within my suggested realistic campaign, and you still didn't answer how it makes it low powered. Again, I'm not trying to fix anything, just give an alternate path for a different feel.

Hmmm, I'm starting to get the feeling that we can never have a civil discussion. We don't seem to ever be eye-to-eye, and my rep's starting to show it.

In regards to 'fixing', you said to just pump up the opposition.
I said that's the same as leaving them as is, and downpowering the PC's.

Hence, it looks like you're just messing with the power-levels to make the game more 'realistic'

IMHO this is unnecessary.

I don't think that realistic runners are average joes, I just believe that they begin their careers as average and develop just like everyone else, on an even level

So if they're not average joes, but begin their career as average.... what are you actually trying to say? 
Are you talking about their career as a Shadowrunner? Their career at Lonestar? Their career at the stuffer shack?

And no, a police officer who's been working for ten years is not getting the same experience as a runner who's been in the business for ten years.
Experience comes down to intense activity. The vast majority of police-work is hum-drum paperwork, briefings and routines, with a few significantly intense moments thrown in. Ask a beat cop how many times they've had to discharge their weapon. It's not a lot, and when they do they get taken off shift for days at a time for counselling, reports, debriefings etc.

Shadowrunners are deliberately throwing themselves into firefights, infiltrations, kidnappings etc on a frequent basis (and even if just once a month, a moderate Shadowrun still has 4-5 scenarios of Infiltration, Firefight, Bar-brawl, Intense Negotiations, bribery etc). It's a concentrated dose of do-or-die training on a regular basis that is more in line with consistent SWAT training.

So, if you want to compare Shadowrunners (400BP is for a Professional, competitive shadowrunner, not a newb) you're better off comparing them to a SWAT officer, not a beat cop.

And back to original point, adjusting the power levels of opposition isn't necessary. Here are some things to make life more realistic for everybody (PC's AND NPC's)
- Harder healing rules (options already available in SR4A running the shadows chapter)
- More knockdown tests on damage
- Legwork requires an extra threshold number
- All armour is 1d6 lower than rated when calculating damage resistance (to reflect the randomness of bullet impact points)

These are universal game mechanics easily applied across the board, without having to modify the abilities of _just_ the opposition (which smacks of power-GM syndrome)

[Crash_00]

And back to original point, adjusting the power levels of opposition isn't necessary. Here are some things to make life more realistic for everybody (PC's AND NPC's)
- Harder healing rules (options already available in SR4A running the shadows chapter)
- More knockdown tests on damage
- Legwork requires an extra threshold number
- All armour is 1d6 lower than rated when calculating damage resistance (to reflect the randomness of bullet impact points)

These are universal game mechanics easily applied across the board, without having to modify the abilities of _just_ the opposition (which smacks of power-GM syndrome)

Increase a Lonestar Officers  skill + Attribute and he will do more damage (increasing heal time), have a better chance of knockdown, and be able to bypass more ammo. This is all without having to handle extra paperwork from houserules.

Lonestar is not the same as our police officers today. They are a security force as opposed to law enforcement, and I doubt they have to get counseling every time they discharge their weapons at an enemy (Do modern PMCs have to). Add in that much of the 2072 comes from the SINless whcih don't even exist (further increasing police brutality) and I think that Lonestar Officers see much more violence than modern day officers.

I'm not saying that every officer stationed in downtown or council island is going to be a combat expert, but a grizzled veteran that has been patrolling the border of the barrens is likely to have been using his skills regularly.

But this brings up anther important point that ties into the difference between low powering the characters and upping the NPCs. I'm not just talking combat skills here. Tech level can be increased as well as other skills to make things more realistic.

A veteran lonestar officer may not shoot his weapon constantly, but it is not uncommon for them to have to pursue vehicles, chase suspects (they always run), or take down suspects (I've seen a large number of tackles just on campus). He would also use perception all the time.

He is also part of a security force that can move him into combat areas they are in control of, call on him to help with intrusions onto corporate territory that they have a contract with, and most likely give him training on par with PMCs to begin with.

If you're a player and your GM is a power GM, he'll find a way to be one no matter what rules or type of campaign he runs.

How is my rule not more realistic for both PCs an NPCs? PCs are no longer nearly super human compared to the average patrol officer, they are like more adaptable versions of the NPCs (and luckier).

And again, the OP asked for rules to help get the setting he wants. What you suggested can work if you want it to and so can mine. I just find that using additional or different rules than standard tend to cause much less of a squeal when you keep the need to remember/keep track of it to a minimum. Adjusting the opposition only requires additional work on the GMs planning.

And before it gets brought up, I've already stated that the GM needs his players to be on board with house rules and this style of campaign.

[JoeNapalm]

I've always pictured shadowrunning as a big risk job. It's highly rewarding in terms of financial gain, but has a huge impact on your health and well-being. Most runners are doomed to die a horrible death to gunfire or drugs.

This is the kind of campaign I want to run, where they get addicted to chems, lose limbs and loved ones. I want to challenge my players with a little more than just a few security officers with guns. Unfortunately, I've been having a hard time doing this in my campaign. My players seem to be avoiding drugs and mental problems, living average lived when they're not being shot at or recovering in the hospital. I can't force them to do anything, because that's not what a GM does. But I do want to sort of push them in that direction.

I also want to do permanent damage to them without ruining their characters. You know, take limbs, eyes, and have them lose essence and physical attributes. But I don't want my players to bitch at me, such as making a magician lose 0.1 essence and reducing their magic permanently by 1. I don't want some strength character losing a point of strength and bitching at me because I ruined his character. I can't even use glitches to enforce these, because glitches almost never happen and whenever they do, players just fix it with one point of edge.

So what rules do you enforce and how do you keep players from hating their GM for ruining their characters? Where's that happy medium?

I've actually done this in other systems that didn't really support it, and the bottom line is you've just gotta GM it (ie, improvise!).

Using 1e D&D as an example - I did something of the sort, where characters who were badly injured suffered long-term consequences if they couldn't get magical healing after getting knocked into deep negative HP in a single attack. After a 10 year long campaign, most of the surviving players had proud battle scars, at the very least. Some had missing eyes, damaged/missing limbs, etc - sometimes impacting stats (Charisma in the case of the guy with horrific burns, Constitution for the dude that got crushed, etc).

The vital point is what you're already hitting on - you can't attack a character's core premise. If your player is a Gunslinger and you slow him down, he's probably not gonna be enthusiastic about the idea. Your big Troll brawler losing STR is going to upset the player, most likely - unless there is a story-driven way to fix it, I'd back it off. Give him a cool scar or he loses an eye, maybe he can RP it up and enjoy it.

That's why I recommend just improvising - don't have hard fast rules for how it works. Maybe imply that you have such a thing (what your players BELIEVE is sometimes more important - if they think you have a system, they might feel it's more "fair"), but even if you DID come up with rules, I'd advise fudging to the point of just making it up...that way you can control what happens.

If you have a player that's fine with being in a wheelchair or blind, and you think it could actually add to the story - go for it. If the player won't be upset about scars or missing digits, so be it. But a rigid system could lead to "ruined" characters, as you said.

Now, in a system that DOES support this stuff, like CP2020 (and the Old West/Spy/various other games I based on that system) - hell, I blew limbs off left and right. But it was accepted that it was a realistic, gritty combat system that didn't pull punches.

SR4 isn't that system. It is meant to be cinematic, not a simulation. Nothing wrong with it - just a different style and focus.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Charybdis]

SR4 isn't that system. It is meant to be cinematic, not a simulation. Nothing wrong with it - just a different style and focus.

Excellent summary. +1 for you

[Crash_00]

I feel its important to point out that while you can't permanently damage a characters primary stats without them feeling its personal (unless they really ask for it to be that gritty, and I mean literally), you can always temporarily hit them when the situation permits.

A street sam spent the night partying and found his way into an ambush the next morning? Feel free to hit him with penalties to Agility and Intuition. (And from personal experience with being hung over next to a firing range, he'd be lucky not to take stun damage from the gunshots).

I do feel the need to say that a Gritty and/or Realistic campaign needs to be decided on before the game starts so the characters can be made accordingly. Characters for a normal game seemed to be made with every future bit of Essence or Karma prepared for ahead of time. In a more realistic game, they have a role to play and some ware/goals, but things change more easily as the character develops.

Joe's summary of the SR4 system is completely accurate, one of the hardest parts of me moving over from SR3 was trying to get over the lack of grit.

That said, you can follow what most of the posters have said and still play a gritty game, just realize that its not what most people expect in an SR game and make sure they're on board.

 At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself two questions:
-Am I, the GM, having fun?
-Are my players having fun?

If the answers are both yes, there is nothing wrong. If the answers are no, work that out first.

[Cass100199]

In one of the books, I forget which on, a skill level example is given for the numbers. For instance, in Firearms, a "3" is your average Soldier, the normal every day grunt. He/ she has trained on various weapons systems, qualified with them, been taught how to use them, etc. Going further a "4" is a combat veteran. He/she has applied the lessons to real life and is competent in their use in real life; "5" and "6" are your cool kids, specops, competition shooters, etc.

So, in regard to this whole power-up/ power down "realistic" mess up above, it isn't hard to base your NPC's skills on relative experience. A LS/ KE Lieutenant is probably going to be a "4". He may not have been in military combat, but I'm sure at some time he's become exceptionally proficient and taken part in some sort of combat. If he/ she is SWAT, he's probably a "5", so on and so forth.

Having realistic NPC's is not a bad thing. A beginning runner is a newbie, for the most part. They may have some skills in their background that are exceptional, but as a career path, they are new. A brand new, out of the box, runner shouldn't be able to take on an experienced tactical unit at even power. For one, they (the opposition) aren't new, but it also creates a false sense of invulnerability to your players. How many players will think to themselves that straight forward kinetic solutions are the best ones if they take down a Red Samurai team on their first run? And yes, the rules do allow for a brand spanking new character to come out of the box carved out with all the cyberware they can fit under their little skins, but then what? Where is the growth? Where is the long term investment of creating a character who has to continuously adapt to keep an edge? To take dangerous jobs and get more nuyen to buy cutting edge technology and stay ahead? If all you want is stats and numbers, make the investment in some Warhammer.

[Sliver]

I like the advice, Crash. Making it realistic was really my main goal, and I love the ideas.

I have a question, though. All I know of is Composure (Will + Cha), and I want to know if there is a list of these rolls or are they just community things?

Also, how can I reduce the amount of money my runners have? I pay on average 20k for a run, and the players always have more money than they know what to do with.

[Mystic]

If they have too much money, maybe try and make it to where they have to buy things.

Replacing gear and weapons is a good start. Guns jam, equipment breaks, and ammo ALWAYS needs replacing. That last one was a particular favorite of one of my old players. He used to blow through ammo quickly and never realized I was keeping track. Sucked when I asked him "So when DID you replace the 100 rounds you had for that SMG?"

Maybe some of the next glitches involving something that while not impossible to fix, will cost them some cash. Armor tends to take a beating, so can weapons; especially things like smartlinks. And speaking of which, what about the possibility of cyber/bioware damage?

Another way, making sure their expendatures are paid up. OOOPS, forgot to make your payment to your landlord, been neglecting your contacts, forget about that ginormous bar tab? Contacts is also a big one for me, especially ones with a lower loyalty rating.

Just my .225 yen.

[Crash_00]

They are in the core book (don't have my copy on me at the moment, but there is a list of Attribute only tests) and Composure is with Judge Intentions, Lifting/Carrying, and Memory.

As for the money question, I've always used the old paychart from the SR3 Runner's Companion. It gave a nice list of bottom line pay per job type and reasons for increases. I took that, and combined it with what the Johnson could afford (as opposed to tailoring it to what the runner's needed) and ran with it. Occasionally my group would turn down a job for low pay, and have a month off, but usually they figured some pay was better than no pay. Remember, Shadowrunners aren't the elite of the elite, they're your run of the mill deniable assets. If they get a high street cred for a type of job they might get paid more for that type of job.

I try to give my runners enough money per month to clear their lifestyles by about a grand to two grand. They can easily make more by playing things smart and looking for more opportunities though (I've got a group of Monty Haulers).

I personally use edge as "Good Bad Luck" when it comes to damage resistance and surviving death. Usually the players gear takes the brunt of the damage that the edge absorbed. Likewise, glitches play hell on players gear in my games too, and I degrade armor fairly fast.

My group also burns through fake SINs and Licenses like crazy (I use the normal SIN rating vs. Scanner rating rule instead of the common 2 * Scanner rating (threshold = SIN rating) house rule). I like to keep my group operating in the shadows and sweating every time they get checked out by security.

One of the funnier moments of my second run was when two players with rating 6 SINs get stopped by the guards (hits were tied) and the guy with the rating 1 SIN and license had just walked through the checkpoint with no problem.