[Shinobi Killfist]

And neither am I, even with The Way of the Adept.  There's a reason I was fighting tooth and nail to get the e-book published, and there's a reason my initial drafts were quite a bit more favorable towards Adepts (not costing points, for instance).  But when playtesters and The-Powers-That-Be both disagree and want things toned down, you compromise and tone it down in order to get anything published.   

So I'm picking my battles and now hoping to use The Way of the Adept as a sort of leverage point when SR5 discussions begin in earnest, so I can say "See?  Fans agree, Adepts need some help, and here's my math to back it up."

Better balanced adept costs is on my long list of things I want to see fixed in 5e. It is getting better especially with the way of the adept, but in some areas you have to suck at math or really want to stick to that pure aura concept not to take bioware/cyber.

I remember when 4e first came out and my troll adept boxer character was made.  Initially I wanted him to be a pure adept, but getting my improved reflexes cost too much.  I'd have put over 1/2 my power points into it and would have cost 30 points where as for 42 points I got the same speed and only used 1 magic, leaving me 4 more magic to play with.  It really was a no brainer, and yeah I raised my magic just so I wouldn't lose magic when I improved my agility.  It would have cost me 3 magic to get the same through adept powers.   

[jago668]

The issue is extremely easy to see.  When you have magically active characters willingly, even gladly, sacrificing essence/magic then you don't have things pointed correctly.  When you can get 2-4 times as much benefit from taking 'ware as you can from the loss in magic it is out of whack.  A slight edge to the 'ware I think most people are fine with.

However 1.0 of essence (with no grades, no biocompatibility, type 0 system etc) gets you what would amount to 3.75 (basically 4) points of magic (more if it would take you into augmented levels).  It should be glaringly obvious something is either over costed or under costed.  Now the new ways reduces that from the 'ware being 4 times better, to only being 3 times better.

However this is only at base gear levels.  If you push delta and biocompatibility that 1 point of essence becomes an even larger level of benefit.  I don't know about other people play their games, but I have yet to play in one that nuyen did not accumulate faster than karma.  Now compound that with an augmented character using nuyen to buy gear for bonuses, and then spending karma to raise abilities.  Compared to a pure magical character only being able to spend karma to raise their performance.  So on top of the just pure numerical advantage 'ware gives, it also allows the same double benefit that a street sam style character gets to take advantage of.

Then lets look at very end of life for characters.  Unlimited money with 1500 karma.  How many more dice is the adept rolling than the sammie?  What 1 or 2?  They will have same base skill ratings, same attributes, same gear bonuses, and same 'ware bonuses.  So that puts the adept up with what 2 points via improved ability.  The only area at which the adept exceeds the street sam is in close combat.  Weapon foci for armed combat, and critical strike (and the adon abilites to killing hands) provide the only benefits that the street sam cannot duplicate.  Hitting spirits/paracritters is an extension of this since an adept won't hurt them anymore than the street sam with ranged attacks, so that is tied directly to their close combat abilities.

So if you are going to do combat you go close combat or why bother.  Now the bright side is with way of the adept you can get some really good noncombat adepts.  Infiltration, physical ability, artistic ability, building/repairing things all got a nice boost.  Basically bringing them inline with faces (what with their way specific powers duplicating kinesics bonuses), or providing mental attribute boosts.  Faces still come out slightly ahead what with getting way discounts on their dice pool adding power.

Also the disparity has existed as far back as 2nd.  I remember it being something like 53 karma extra to build an adept that matched the sample character street sam.

Saying all that.  I do love my adepts.  I will fight you tooth and nail to play one in a game.  It goes to just being a cool factor.  Still would be nice to catch a little bit of a break with them.  Like if your magic rating actually started capped out like it did in 2nd.  That'd be 65 build points that would help elsewhere.  Push combat improved ability to 0.25 as well, improved reflexes to cost the same as the rating (1/2/3), reduce improved attribute down to 0.5 (and make it work for any attribute, and give the ways a discount on them for yanking their special ability), reduce pain resistance to 0.25.  I would also like to see rapid healing add to peoples healing tests to heal you, like the quick healer quality, and reduce astral perception to 0.5 (always seemed a bit much at a full point).  Also voice control should add the same dice benefits as the vocal bioware upgrade (same power point cost as essence, do the same things) has bugged me since I first got the Augmentation book.

[baronspam]

Money is never unlimited, and I think it would be very rare for a game to get to 1500 karma.  Realistically, that's several hundred completed adventures, which may take more than one session each to complete.  I think I read the average gaming group meets twice a month.  Even gaming weekly that's years of play, most groups never make it that long.

[Cass100199]

So why not house rule the cost to be as low as cyber?

[UmaroVI]

Lots of people do in fact have various houserules about adepts. That doesn't mean that a problem doesn't exist, only that the problem is fixable. But actually, lowering the price of adept powers doesn't really fix their core problems - it makes more people want to "dip" adept, perhaps a few people that formerly wouldn't bother otherwise, but it actually makes pure adept LESS attractive relative to mystic adept or cybered adept.

I should probably make a "why adepts blow trolls for pocket change" thread sometime.

[Glyph]

Yeah.  Hate to say it, but pure adepts are essentially a "suboptimal for flavor" build.  I wouldn't say they suck, but nearly any adept build can be improved with 'ware.

For combat adepts, you want synaptic boosters and muscle toner, because it is so much cheaper than improving Attributes and initiative passes with Magic.  Even for adept hackers or faces, who are awesome, there's no reason not to get some augmentations, too, and be even more awesome.  Kinesics stacks with tailored pheromones.  Improved ability: hacking stacks with an encephalon and PuSHeD.

[Mystic]

Ya know, after some thought, and to be honest having just read Way of the Adept, I've realized I really am a purist. Something about mixing that much magic and cyber/bio just dosen't seem to hold any attraction for me anymore. Its like getting a classic car, a pure work of art and slapping a bunch of cheap bumper or window stickers on it.

Yeah adepts are a bit behind the curve, but once you get them going, they really can be kick ass. Mixing and matching just seems a bit, munchy to me and that the only idea is to build an optimised machine rather than a character. Now if that floats your boat, that's OK. We all want to kick ass when we play. But I've found that sound tactics and common sence can make up for a few less dice to throw.

Just my .25 yen

 

[jago668]

Well it also depends on the character.  You start out pure, and then you have the street sammies passing you up.  So you think, if it works for them, it would work for me.  So you grab a couple things to ease life along.  However you lost a few of your tricks.  Your character might not even know about initiating to get better at magic.  So he starts thinking, well now I need a few more pieces of 'ware to make up for that.  Down the burnout path you go.

[Onion Man]

+1 Mystic.

If we wanted to play competitive algebra, we'd go play 3.75 with the Pathfinder kiddies (and yes, I will out algebra you there too, Pathfinder Orazilla is far more frightening than any 3.5zilla ever was).

[Mystic]

+1 Mystic.

If we wanted to play competitive algebra, we'd go play 3.75 with the Pathfinder kiddies (and yes, I will out algebra you there too, Pathfinder Orazilla is far more frightening than any 3.5zilla ever was).

Danke. And funny enough, I just got home from playing Pathfinder a few hours ago. OK more like creepy, but hey let's roll with it. It's not a bad game system, but it DOES lend itself for as you call it "competitive algebra" (gonna use that some night if you don't mind).

Case in point: (SOAPBOX WARNING!!!) my current group has been playing it for a while now under two GMs. Now in both groups we have gained some pretty high levels, 14 being the average. And both times, both GMs have resorted to always having to "amp up" our encounters and they turn into slug fests and dice roll vs dice roll. No tactics, no role play, no character. With both my characters (one of them me because its an "Us" game), I've worked up a history, and picked feats, weapons, skills, etc based on what I thought would fit me or my style, rather than what would make me just another generic badass. Result: GMs are frusturated because everything seems to be a "cakewalk" for us, and players getting tired of GMs bitching and throwing insane crap at us just for the sake of us taking damage.

News flash to all GM/DMs: Damage to your PCs does NOT equal "challenge". Coming up with sound or new tactics and forcing us to adjust to those tactics is the challenge. Another flash: amping up numbers for their own sake IS NOT a "tactic". I don't mind taking on tougher opponents as I get tougher, but doing it for it's own sake just to stay ahead of me gets old. Throw me a curve, make me think beyond the math skills I learned in the 3rd grade. Big bad dragon no problem, how about framing me for a crime and forcing me to prove my innocence or be hunted for the rest of my life? Oh, and don't blame me if I am able to come up with good skill and attribute combinations, allow me to purchace kick-ass weapons by the book, and then whine that you can't do anything to stop me when your dice go cold or when I use sound or new tactics against YOU. 

Point always is: a character is more than a set of numbers. Treat is as such and more often than not your game will suffer. Give it some genuine feeling, thought, and maybe a bit of "soul" and chances are you'll enjoy yourself a lot more. And that's why I only like Pathfinder and LOVE Shadowrun. SR is more for a role-player, not a roll player.

*waves hands in frustration and gets off soapbox*

Now back to our regularly scheduled insanity, already in progress...

[FastJack]

Huh... I've never had a problem like that in the Pathfinder games I've been in. Right now, the GM running us through Rise of the Runelords has had to reconfigure the adventures, but that's because it was written for 3.5 and not actual Pathfinder.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Virtually all game systems can be played tactically with new challenges being given by the GM or played by numbers with just bigger and badder encounters. SR tactics can be complex in one game or just be I grab cover in another game.  4e D&D people like to call it a tactical game but most of the people when they are talking tactics are really talking power/feat combinations for absurd damage.  Not saying there isn't tactics in the game, just what you see on the forums.  And most of the honest to god tactical elements in 4e D&D are in 3.? but the game is less chess piece like so it isn't as obvious.

Savage worlds, paladium, WOD, battletech/mechwarrior all have tactical elements but they can be busted down to a numbers game. 

The problem is while I can say well good tactics make up for 3 extra dice, there is nothing stopping me from having good tactics and 3 extra dice.  I can get my numbers game down in every system but still play smart.

 Ideally even the numbers game would be a "tactical element" where there are positives and negatives and the decision is based more on outside factors(character concept) and not just that one is always the better choice mechanically.  I don;t mind some sub=optimal choices in the game or just plain bad choices but they should not be for a core singular element to a character type.  In previous editions they had a crappy cyber for initiative enhancements and that was kind of cool, it was a bad choice in most cases but street sams had other options. With one option available for adepts to permanently boost an attribute or reaction through magic it should be a competitive choice.

[Glyph]

You can come up with some decently optimized pure adepts, though.  Example: 6 Magic, one of those "ways" that gives you a 25% discount on certain powers.  Get improved reflexes: 3, improved abiity: 3, and combat sense: 3, for 7 power points, discounted down to 5.25.  With the remaining 0.75, get counterstrike: 1 and agility boost: 1.  Make this character a blades fighter, with one of his blades a Force: 4 weapon focus bought with the restricted gear quality.  Get three levels of martial arts to get +2 DV for blades and be able to do damage on a disarm.  Get the iaijutsu, disarm, off-hand training, riposte, and two-weapon fighting style maneuvers.  You will wind up with a character that does incredibly well on offense, and even better on blocking and counterattacking.

Similarly, adept faces and technos can simply settle for their magical bonuses, and not add the technical ones.  To compensate, they will have more power points for peripheral abilities.  The face might be able to get facial sculpt, skin pigmentation, and linguistics, while the techno might be able to get eidetic sense memory, multi-tasking, nimble fingers, and sustenance.

The only type of adept where I really feel the need for bioware is an unarmed specialist - they have so much stuff they need to get for it, that getting a synaptic booster and muscle toner is a very compelling shortcut.

[Mystic]

Huh... I've never had a problem like that in the Pathfinder games I've been in. Right now, the GM running us through Rise of the Runelords has had to reconfigure the adventures, but that's because it was written for 3.5 and not actual Pathfinder.

My problem is not with the game, I rather enjoy the game and the game universe. It's the GM, some of the players, and both with their lack of imagination. We're already five modules into RotRLs, and they are well done. But when the GM pretty much says "you enter the room, you see five figures, roll initiative" it gets boring. And that's kind of the heart of the problem, my GMs for PF (and most other games) have pretty much given up. Im considering going elsewhere, but these are my friends outside of gaming.

And thats kind of how I see this Adept VS Sammie thing. Sammies are great if you want an instant ass kicker but for long term Adepts offer a lot more. Sad thing is, most don't want to wait or games fall apart before an adept can reach their full potential. It took me over six years and playing at multiple tables to get my signature character where he was through second and third editions. Not many people get a third of that time to develop a character, no matter what the game is.

And yes, it's sad when people think that tactics are nothing more than coming up with destructive combos and try and turn an RPG into nothing more than a video game on paper. I guess it all comes down to what kind of game do you and your group want to play.

[nojosecool]

Back to one of Mystic's earlier posts...

I totally agree that what makes Adepts more fun to play is their neat powers rather than their stat boosts.  Also, I've made a great generalist adept (though he is tricked out with 2 essence points of ware), so it can be done.  He's a little weak on one of his 4 primary roles, but that's to be expected.  Besides, that's what karma's for, right?

Things like wall-running, multi-tasking, elemental strike, voice control (far superior to the vocal enhancer doohickey for augments), traceless walk, commanding voice, etc. etc. are just awesome.  They put a lot of tools in your box for overcoming obstacles that augments simply can't equip themselves to deal with.  My generalist took no skill / stat enhancing powers and limited it to pure "toolbox powers" (as I like to call them) and one combat power.  He's a hacker/face/martial artist/infiltrator whose only combat power is nerve strike.  He's a blast to play.  You simply couldn't hope to do all of that with an augmented character.  I love adepts.