[John Shull]

When you're not doing a dice pool exercise of "how high can this skill get", high dice pools get to a point of diminishing returns.  From a number-crunching point of view, you are sacrificing your ability in other areas, or taking on weaknesses, to get a dice pool that will probably be overkill most of the time.  From a roleplaying point of view, you will be bored, both when using your specialty (because it is too easy), and when not using your specialty (because you can't do anything else well).  From a metagaming point of view, it's usually better to have a dice pool of 18-20 and fly below the radar, than to have a dice pool of 24+ and have the GM upping the difficulty of encounters to "challenge" you, and focusing on all of your character's weaknesses in other areas.

But while roleplaying is important, having appropriate dice pools is also important.  The dice are a tool to approximate what the character can do, and provide an impartial mechanism for resolving this (as well as introducing a truly random factor into the game).  I typically work on stats and background in tandem - if my character is a crack shot, a schmoozing wheeler-dealer, dumb as a sack of bricks, or tough as nails, then it should be reflected in that character's stats and dice pools.

I absolutely agree with this post in an almost religious fevor way.  It is the heart of making a playable character for your game.  You absolutely need to have a character sheet that reflects the characters ability.  Having a Street Samurai who has 10 die in their primary attack is weak and would hurt the playing of the character in game vs real opposition kinda.  I say kinda because the GM is going to scale the encounter to challenge your groups level.  So if you make the same Sammie with a primary 20 die pool it would just mean maybe 4 more badguys standing there and maybe better weapons, etc.  Math should reflect what you want your character to be but don't go NASA on it.  The GM will just equalize it and many things you sacrificed in the character to add those 5 more die to your prime attk will kinda be wasted.  Your character will get better and Karma up to Prime Runner sooner than you think and the getting there is the fun part. 

[baronspam]

...The biggest advantage as everyone has stated already is that the adept has a ton of room to grow and improve while essence doesn't give the wired crowd such capabilities.

That's not entirely true. With grades of cyberware available (all the way up to delta) the avg. street sam will never max his capabilities. What he'll do is just remove the older less tricked out cyber and replace them with a higher grade of cyberware free essence for the new & improved stuff...

Also note that if by some miracle the street sam does manage to max out his essence he could just sell all him augmentation and retire...

Adi

Thats true, but those improved grades of 'ware are really expensive.  By the time the street sammi has converted his entire kit to delta ware the adept could retire to a high lifestyle condo in Havana and spend every morning playing golf and drinking blender rum drinks. 

[LostProxy]

...The biggest advantage as everyone has stated already is that the adept has a ton of room to grow and improve while essence doesn't give the wired crowd such capabilities.

That's not entirely true. With grades of cyberware available (all the way up to delta) the avg. street sam will never max his capabilities. What he'll do is just remove the older less tricked out cyber and replace them with a higher grade of cyberware free essence for the new & improved stuff...

Also note that if by some miracle the street sam does manage to max out his essence he could just sell all him augmentation and retire...

Adi

Thats true, but those improved grades of 'ware are really expensive.  By the time the street sammi has converted his entire kit to delta ware the adept could retire to a high lifestyle condo in Havana and spend every morning playing golf and drinking blender rum drinks.

That depends completely on the Karma:Nuyen ratio. To keep things even all it takes is the occasional heavy pay job. In the one game I played the adept did become very effective but the street sam was never far behind. In fact the street same had a much more rounded selection of skills and his move by wire 2 made sure even in close combat (the adepts specialty) he could mitigate whatever the adept was doing to him. He had 18 dice on full dodge so getting out of the way was never an issue.

[Kylen]

My 2 creds:

Adepts may be a tad on the lower powered side, but this comes with a few advantages:

A: Less likely to be randomly jumped by various security forces because you gleamed your shoulder at them in the wrong way

B: It costs less to go to a dojo/whathave every day for a month or two to get a new power then to go out and buy your new enhancement and then go to the doc and have him install it.

C: Did I mention that you're a HELL of a lot less obvious on the material plane? Though, I guess in some circles this would make you more obvious, but in general...

D: You can have only so many augments to cover so many possibilites, while a high point Adept with a decent Initiation level can cover most anything.


But, Street Sams have their place as a much harder hitting, harder to kill character in general, probably using heavier weapons as well.

[LostProxy]

D: You can have only so many augments to cover so many possibilites, while a high point Adept with a decent Initiation level can cover most anything.

I think there's a flaw in that one because good adepts are rarely generalists. In fact I don't think I've ever seen a good adept that wasn't a specialist. On the other hand augmented characters can make amazing generalists. I did it in a very expensive way with my bio/genetech Street Sam but even so did it in a very effective way. I could do even better with cheaper cyberware and some adapsin/biocompatibility. Used Alphaware is also your friend.

[baronspam]

D: You can have only so many augments to cover so many possibilites, while a high point Adept with a decent Initiation level can cover most anything.

I think there's a flaw in that one because good adepts are rarely generalists. In fact I don't think I've ever seen a good adept that wasn't a specialist. On the other hand augmented characters can make amazing generalists. I did it in a very expensive way with my bio/genetech Street Sam but even so did it in a very effective way. I could do even better with cheaper cyberware and some adapsin/biocompatibility. Used Alphaware is also your friend.

Have to agree here.  Its far easier for an augmented character to boost a large number of stats, compaired to even a 6 magic adept.  With excellent stats and moderate skills (something pretty easy to do as augmented) you can make someone with decent dice pools in quite a few areas.  Generalists typically are augmented.

[LostProxy]

Though being an adept essentially makes every build better. 5 BP and I can score 2-3 extra dice for just about any skill? Yes please.

[baronspam]

Though being an adept essentially makes every build better. 5 BP and I can score 2-3 extra dice for just about any skill? Yes please.

Well, its 5 bp plus the cost of the magic and then largely staying away from mods to maintain the magic.  Not saying that being able to directly bonus the skill of your choice isn't very nice, especially if you want to have 9 or 10 skill in something offbeat, but it comes at a price.

[LostProxy]

1 free magic point with the quality. Boosting most skills are .25 to .5 points. An easy 2-3 extra dice to share among a couple of skills for 5 bp. Most builds stay above 1 essence so that isn't much of an issue.

Really I can see why people call it Magicrun at times. "You good at your job? Well as long as you stay above 1 essence you can always make yourself better for a minimal investment."

[UmaroVI]

No. Essence does not just cap your maximum Magic, losing essence also drops your current magic. If you start with Magic 1 for just Adept, any ware at all will lose you your point of magic. See SR4A p68.

I think people tend to think Adept is better than it is because there's so many different things adepts can hypothetically do. The problem is adepts have a lot of ultra-specific powers, many of which are grossly overpriced, so any real adept is going to either suck, or be a specialist in one of the not-overpriced areas. But there are no areas where the adept doesn't eventually hit the point of "all the powers I want cost more PP than ware that does the same thing costs Essence," so all adepts are better off getting ware.

[baronspam]

No. Essence does not just cap your maximum Magic, losing essence also drops your current magic. If you start with Magic 1 for just Adept, any ware at all will lose you your point of magic. See SR4A p68.

I think people tend to think Adept is better than it is because there's so many different things adepts can hypothetically do. The problem is adepts have a lot of ultra-specific powers, many of which are grossly overpriced, so any real adept is going to either suck, or be a specialist in one of the not-overpriced areas. But there are no areas where the adept doesn't eventually hit the point of "all the powers I want cost more PP than ware that does the same thing costs Essence," so all adepts are better off getting ware.

As an academic exercise I worked on a human adept character last night.  I have always gone the all magic route with adepts before, but I decided to try to mix in a little bioware and see what I could come up with.  I don't have the full build at hand, but between maxed skill and specialization, high agility, surge, adpet powers, and 1 essence worth of bioware, and 10 bp of martial arts, he had 20 dice for unarmed combat, and hit for 7 physical plus electric damage.  He had enough left over for some athletics, infiltration, a couple of firearms skills, and a bit of perception.  Very much a specialist, but probably the most successful adept I have ever built.   Even that one essence worth of bioware made a huge difference on his stats, and only cost me 50,000 nuyen, or 10 bp when I was done.

On the other hand, I think a street sami could probably duplicate that with cyberware and martial arts, or at least get very close.  but the point is that I finally had a adept that I felt was going to at least be competitive in his role with a high end sami, and also be able to punch spirits in the face if the issue came up.  I think I have crossed over to the darkside and bought into the idea that an adept should take at least a little bit of bioware.

[UmaroVI]

I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who didn't have Sensitive System, wasn't a sapient critter or other "no ware lolz" species, and would from a pure optimization standpoint not want 'ware.

[Critias]

1 free magic point with the quality. Boosting most skills are .25 to .5 points. An easy 2-3 extra dice to share among a couple of skills for 5 bp. Most builds stay above 1 essence so that isn't much of an issue.

Really I can see why people call it Magicrun at times. "You good at your job? Well as long as you stay above 1 essence you can always make yourself better for a minimal investment."

If I misunderstood how Essence and Magic interacted with one another, I might call it MagicRun, too.

Essence does not merely set the cap for your potential Magic score.  Essence lost (at character creation or afterwards) lowers your Magic.  Period.  If you spend 5 BP for the Adept Positive Quality, you receive 1 Magic Point.  If you do not spend the BP to increase that Magic above 1, the purchase of anything that negatively impacts Essence -- a datajack, let's say -- lowers your Essence to 5.99, and your Magic to 0. 

Congratulations, you've built a burn-out.

In order to mix augmentation and Adept powers, you need to buy your Magic up (capping, and costing extra, at 6 during character creation), and then knock it back down for every bit of Essence loss you pick up mingling in 'ware.  You're throwing BP out the window, in other words, in order to try and purchase and maintain an effective Magic rating, if you dip too heavily into augmentation.

You can't make a hardcore Street Sammy with just 1.01 Essence left, and have any Adept power points, in other words...unless you bought his Magic up to 6 (including the extra cost for capping it), at which point you'd have 1 Magic point left (and would be capped at 1 level of any power, as per the usual limitations) to be a "better" Street Samurai.

Hopefully this clarifies the rules situation for you, and will let you re-evaluate your "MagicRun" condemnation, at least where Adepts are concerned.

I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who didn't have Sensitive System, wasn't a sapient critter or other "no ware lolz" species, and would from a pure optimization standpoint not want 'ware.

Which is a flaw with the core SR4 rules, and one I've bemoaned for years now.  I think the primary culprit is the criminally overpriced attribute increases that Adepts get, compared to the efficiency of similar augmentation through mundane means.  If you can get basic Muscle Toner for .4 to increase Agility from 6 to 7, and it costs 1.5 to get the same increase through Adept powers...yeah, it's a no brainer.

I partially tried to help with just those same sort of characters in Way of the Adept by offering power discounts, but it was beyond my reach to just outright alter the prices of Adept powers, unfortunately.  It's something I hope I'm still around to bitch about when SR5 is getting worked on.

[baronspam]

   

.

Which is a flaw with the core SR4 rules, and one I've bemoaned for years now.  I think the primary culprit is the criminally overpriced attribute increases that Adepts get, compared to the efficiency of similar augmentation through mundane means.  If you can get basic Muscle Toner for .4 to increase Agility from 6 to 7, and it costs 1.5 to get the same increase through Adept powers...yeah, it's a no brainer.

 

This is the exact problem.  Some SURGE for improved agility, a restricted gear quality, and muscle toner 4 (doesn't really cost that much nuyen, and less than 1 essence) and you are sitting on an agility of 10.  Adepts just can't compete with that, at least strictly with adept powers.  And if you are compairing adept vs. augmented, the augmented throws on some reactioin enhances, wired reflexes, a bone mod, a skin mod, etc, and his stats are crazy.  The return that the street sami gets for 50 points in gear is crazy when compaired to the return that the adept gets for spending 50 points on magic.  And yes, the adept can raise his abilties through karma alone, but its incredibly expensive.  lets say you have already boosed your agility by 2 and are at or above your metatype unmodified max for agility, and that you are at a magic of 6.  To get two more points of agility (which the restricted gear sami has out of the box) you need three initiations and three points of magic.  Thats 168 karma!!! 

By carefully mixing magic and bioware, and staying very focued, you can make adepts that are competive in a particular area, and adepts have certain roles (like anti-sprit/anti-magic) that the sami can't really take on.  But overall I am still not really convinced that adepts are balanced.

[Critias]

And neither am I, even with The Way of the Adept.  There's a reason I was fighting tooth and nail to get the e-book published, and there's a reason my initial drafts were quite a bit more favorable towards Adepts (not costing points, for instance).  But when playtesters and The-Powers-That-Be both disagree and want things toned down, you compromise and tone it down in order to get anything published.   

So I'm picking my battles and now hoping to use The Way of the Adept as a sort of leverage point when SR5 discussions begin in earnest, so I can say "See?  Fans agree, Adepts need some help, and here's my math to back it up."