[CanRay]

True, but outright stating which uses cased, which doesn't would be nice.  There's a major difference.

Cased ammo is more robust and tough.  Caseless is cleaner (for the firearm) and doesn't leave brass all over the place.

Ah well, the rules do state that weapons either take one or the other (Kind of like the same firearm using a different caliber, I guess.), so there you go.  *Shrugs*  Just another thing that annoys me, like the lack of calibers.

[Mystic]

*Sigh* Why did this have to come out NOW instead of AFTER Origins when I'll like...HAVE MONEY???

As long as the "caliber" thing dosen't really change the rules, and is more of an abstract fluff device, I don't see the problem. There is a reason that damge codes in all RPGs are somewhat abstract because how does one REALLY and exactly quantify how much a long sword versus a short or bastard sword does?

Yes, there are differences between in real life between the damge a 9mm and a .45 can do, but when it comes to a .40 and .45? Yes, you can pull out all sorts of stats and figures but in my experience, when it comes down to it you hit the right spot and anyone is going down be it 9mm, .38, .40, .45ACP.

Me, Im not going to let myself get caught up in it and try to enjoy the product for what it is....MORE GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!

[CanRay]

The Caliber thing does not change any rules, it's just there for once.  I'm happy enough for even that much.    Hell, I'm the only one in my group that knows that a "Nine" isn't a type of pistol!

Also, congrats to CGL:  It's #1 on Drive-Thru RPG!  Considering that it just came out last night, that's some big props!

[hobgoblin]

As long as the "caliber" thing dosen't really change the rules, and is more of an abstract fluff device, I don't see the problem.

The only place it shows up is in the art, from what i understand. And when was the last time the art was part of the rules?

[Bull]

Also, congrats to CGL:  It's #1 on Drive-Thru RPG!  Considering that it just came out last night, that's some big props!

Heh.  While I'm glad we're kicking ass with these PDFs, I'm just a touch sad we can't manage to get Missions to stay in the top 10 longer.

(Spread the word, spread the love folks.

[Mystic]

As long as the "caliber" thing dosen't really change the rules, and is more of an abstract fluff device, I don't see the problem.

The only place it shows up is in the art, from what i understand. And when was the last time the art was part of the rules?

Art in RPGs are like speed limit signs...great to look at, but ultimately don't mean much.

 

[CanRay]

Don't be so sure.  I've taken a number of pieces of art from Deadlands and turned them into adventures.

[Faelan]

On the caseless ammunition front I can testify that most people who are pressing for pure caseless ammunition do not use firearms regularly or are not thinking the problem through all the way.  The principal reason you get a jam or malfunction in a firearm is 1) Improper technique leading to poor recoil which result in a short extraction cycle and a case stuck in the gun, 2) dirt jammed in the firearm causing once again poor extraction of the case and a jam, or 3) the powder is bad/weak and once again we get a jam due to failure to extract.  It seems like you could eliminate all three by removing cased ammo, however there is a problem.  1&2 never happen if you know what you are doing, and engage in simple maintenance.  #3 will happen, even if it is caseless, and in that instance you may not know it, and more importantly you may have a projectile jammed in the barrel, which is a wonderful side effect of such a round.  This instance is the reason I don't see full caseless as a practical or even desirable goal because if you fire with a blocked barrel it has the possibility of a complete and catastrophic failure occurring.

[Mystic]

...This instance is the reason I don't see full caseless as a practical or even desirable goal because if you fire with a blocked barrel it has the possibility of a complete and catastrophic failure occurring.

And great fodder for a catastrophic glitch. 

[CanRay]

Hey Bull, Page 14!  Lower-Right Hand Corner!

Looks like your Cyberdeck just might be workable after all!   

[Bull]

Heh.  Of course it is.  Bull ain't no fool

[CanRay]

Heh.  Of course it is.  Bull ain't no fool

OK, correction:  His cyberdeck can now work as we have Crunch to deal with it. 

Wonder what it's stats are.  Or is it gutted and a bunch of CommLinks set up as a Cluster?  (And this should probably go in another thread, but it is a nice addition to the rules that I like.  Another reason to get the book!).

Plus side on art:  Great Vintage firearms!  Down side on art:  Um...  Yeah, the new firearms, not so good. 

[Frankie the Fomori]

Best I can get you from Datahaven Bull's stats:

Commlink: Custom Built, all programs and attributes rating 6 or better, carried inside an armored Alpha Allegiance Cyberdeck casing.

[Mäx]

On the caseless ammunition front I can testify that most people who are pressing for pure caseless ammunition do not use firearms regularly or are not thinking the problem through all the way.

Or we're just going with the assumption that those problems have been worked-out, as caseless ammo has been the standard in the sixth world for 20+ years already.

[Faelan]

Some problems will always require a visual cue and inspection to ensure proper functioning.  Caseless was assumed to be the standard in past editions due to 1) a lot of caseless research at the time and people claiming it was going to make cased weapons obsolete, 2) a major lack of firearms knowledge and use by the writers, 3) caseless ammo is cool and edgy and 4) compounded error.

You will never get past issue number three unless you have someway of sensing a projectile stuck in the barrel.  Any method is likely electronic and therefore subject to failure.  Making perfectly reliable ammo is also not going to happen, so no matter what you do this particular type of malfunction can and will occur and a cased variant will likely have a visual cue to suggest further inspection, where as a caseless round will not.  The first time a soldier has his gun explode in his hands without any warning is when that particular ammunition or even weapon would lose favor.

The fact that we can assume stable caseless rounds, ones which do not degrade appreciably in air, and function properly, does not resolve in any way the lack of a visual cue for the most severe of firearms malfunctions.