[Malex]

Alright, I'm sure that this question has been posted elsewhere on the forums; however I'm lazy and don't wanna dig through everything to find the answer.

In the Corebook under Mystic Adepts (SR4a page 195) it says that "...For all other purposes the character's full Magic attribute is used." What are those 'other purposes' in reference to?

I've a PC playing a Mystic Adept and I'm confused as to how his Sorcery + Magic skills work. I figure that if he has Magic 6, split it down the middle for 3 Adept Power Points and 3 for Spellslinging; which makes it so that all of his Spellslinging dice are limited to Sorcery + Magic 3 (if he goes full Force).
If that's the case, then he can only cast up to Force 3?
And that he can only count 3 Hits for Spellcasting, limited because of his Magic 3 (for casting)?
Or am I completely wrong on this one? And that he should be using his Magic Rating of 6 for determining the number of Hits he can use for a Spellcasting test instead of Magic 3?

[Tsuzua]

Using your example (6 total magic, 3 for adept powers, 3 for magician powers), if he's using a magic linked skill such as Sorcery, Conjuring, Banishing, Enchanting, he rolls Skill + Magician Magic (or Skill+3).  However for maximum force and the like, he uses his total magic.  So he can cast force 7 spells or summon force 10 spirits if he wants.  Hits are capped by the force of the spell you're casting, not your magic attribute.  If you're overcasting, you can keep more hits than your magic attribute. 

The FAQ says the opposite of this.  However the FAQ deals with SR4 and not SR4A where it worked differently. 

[Ten-Hex]

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), maximum spell Force, overcasting, etc.

For a mystic adept’s adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes powers that require Magic Tests like Attribute Boost, the maximum rating of leveled adept powers, etc.

For all other purposes—i.e., non-Magic-linked skills—the mystic adept’s full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, being assensed, etc.

So for the example above, a mystic adept with Magic 6 with 2 points devoted to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain. His adept powers are limited to rating 4 or lower.

A lot of people take issue with this ruling in the FAQ, as it directly contradicts what is written in the SR4A core rulebook. Even the example in SR4A has the mystic adept expressly applying 3 dice for magic to Magic-linked skill tests and 4 magic for other purposes.

RAW is that you split your Magic rating between physical abilities and magic power. Each point of Magic allocated to physical abilities give you one power points worth of adept powers. Each point of Magic allocated to magic  power gives you one die to use on Magic-linked skill tests. For all other purposes use your full Magic rating. That means you can have an adept power with rating up to (Magic), you can cast spells up to (Magic) force without overcasting, can summon spirits up to (Magic) force without suffering physical drain, etc.

When mystic adepts were first introduced in earlier editions of shadowrun (2nd was when they made their first appearance, I think), they worked similar to the FAQ's change to the core rules. Mechanics for magic were a bit different in those rules, but your spellcasting/conjuring was strictly limited by the points of Magic you withheld from your physical abilities. If you had Magic 3 for spellcasting and Magic 2 for adept powers in earlier editions, you took physical drain for casting a force 4 spell. I'm sure that GMs house-ruling to go with the FAQ's rules change are not rare.

That said, a FAQ is a place for explanation of confusing rules and an errata is a place for changing a printed rule in a book. Until an SR4A errata limits mystic adepts more clearly and stringently, RAW they can have Magic 6 with 5 power points of adept powers and lobbing force 6 spells with an Spellcasting + effective Magic 1 for magician abilities that only cause stun drain.

[Dead Monky]

Personally, I like the FAQ's ruling.

[Bradd]

It seems reasonable on the surface, but it's extremely difficult to play a competent magician with low Force. Combat spells don't do much damage, you can only heal minor wounds, you can't reach the necessary thresholds for buffing, your illusions won't fool anyone, and so on. I've heard people say that this only hurts combat mages, not utility mages, but I think it actually hurts utility mages even more. With combat spells, you can at least keep blasting; a low-Force invisibility spell simply fails.

[Charybdis]

It seems reasonable on the surface, but it's extremely difficult to play a competent magician with low Force. Combat spells don't do much damage, you can only heal minor wounds, you can't reach the necessary thresholds for buffing, your illusions won't fool anyone, and so on. I've heard people say that this only hurts combat mages, not utility mages, but I think it actually hurts utility mages even more. With combat spells, you can at least keep blasting; a low-Force invisibility spell simply fails.

Low force sucks. I've played a mystic adept on a few occasions, and it's generally to spend majority of power points in Spellcasting, but have a couple of decent adept powers according to PC flavour.

I tried crunching the numbers to be a majority phys-ad with a minor in spellcasting, but it wasn't an effective, well, anything... Not recommended, but I'd be interested in anyone's ideas on how to pull it off.

[Mäx]

I tried crunching the numbers to be a majority phys-ad with a minor in spellcasting, but it wasn't an effective, well, anything... Not recommended, but I'd be interested in anyone's ideas on how to pull it off.

Getting good casting skill is the key part, after that a power focus nicely makes up for the casting dices you lose for adept powers.

Even with only 2 magic for casting you can get a nice casting pool if you want:
Magic 2 + Spellcasting 6 + Power focus 4 = 12 dice

[Malex]

It's beginning to sound like this character type isn't the 'best of both worlds' that it's been depicted as. Also starting to be glad that I allowed my PC to pick up afew foci, or he'd be mightily unhappy.

[ngfanatic]

Getting good casting skill is the key part, after that a power focus nicely makes up for the casting dices you lose for adept powers.

Even with only 2 magic for casting you can get a nice casting pool if you want:
Magic 2 + Spellcasting 6 + Power focus 4 = 12 dice

but the Force of those spells would still be capped by only the magic attribute.
So Force 2 for Stun or Force 4 if you overcast, that may be enough if you plan ahead, but you certainly can't just go "ok i need some extra oomph here gonna cast a force 10 powerball to rescue the team" and then let the sammy drag you to the escape car.

[Mäx]

Getting good casting skill is the key part, after that a power focus nicely makes up for the casting dices you lose for adept powers.

Even with only 2 magic for casting you can get a nice casting pool if you want:
Magic 2 + Spellcasting 6 + Power focus 4 = 12 dice

but the Force of those spells would still be capped by only the magic attribute.
So Force 2 for Stun or Force 4 if you overcast

No the max force is limited by the full magic attribute.

[Dead Monky]

It seems reasonable on the surface, but it's extremely difficult to play a competent magician with low Force. Combat spells don't do much damage, you can only heal minor wounds, you can't reach the necessary thresholds for buffing, your illusions won't fool anyone, and so on. I've heard people say that this only hurts combat mages, not utility mages, but I think it actually hurts utility mages even more. With combat spells, you can at least keep blasting; a low-Force invisibility spell simply fails.

Difficult to play or no, it makes more sense to me.  But I've never actually had anyone play a mystic adept before so I've never really had to worry about it.  *shrugs*

[ngfanatic]

but the Force of those spells would still be capped by only the magic attribute.
So Force 2 for Stun or Force 4 if you overcast

No the max force is limited by the full magic attribute.

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Charybdis]

but the Force of those spells would still be capped by only the magic attribute.
So Force 2 for Stun or Force 4 if you overcast

No the max force is limited by the full magic attribute.

Excuse me, say what?

So where it says 'For Spellcasting and Conjuring, Magic Rating is the number of power points assigned' (or words to the effect, don't have the text handy), you're taking that definition to exclusively mean the Skills involved, but not the Activity involved?

Seems a very, very cheesy line to make.

I am not pleased with the idea that some mystic adept with 1 point in 'Spellcasting magic' and 5 in Physad abilities, has the same Spell Force maximums as a Magic 6 Full Magician. Does not seem fair to me for a dabbler....

Especially when, as you said, they can just bond a nice big focus and get a massive Spellcasting dice pool anyway....

[Bradd]

I don't think it's cheesy to allow spell power up to the full Magic score, especially when the rule explicitly allows that for adept powers: "For all other purposes, including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers, the character’s full Magic attribute is used."

I also don't think a mystic adept is a "dabbler" or not based solely on how they allocate Magic points. Somebody who sinks a bunch of bp/karma into Spellcasting, spells, and foci is clearly not a dabbler.

And as I noted before, mystic adepts simply aren't very playable as shadowrunners if you limit Force. They suck at just about everything except combat spells against unprotected targets. Mystic adepts get the worst of both worlds, not the best, much like multiclassed spellcasters in D&D 3rd Edition.

[Ten-Hex]

I don't think it's cheesy to allow spell power up to the full Magic score, especially when the rule explicitly allows that for adept powers: "For all other purposes, including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers, the character’s full Magic attribute is used."

I also don't think a mystic adept is a "dabbler" or not based solely on how they allocate Magic points. Somebody who sinks a bunch of bp/karma into Spellcasting, spells, and foci is clearly not a dabbler.

And as I noted before, mystic adepts simply aren't very playable as shadowrunners if you limit Force. They suck at just about everything except combat spells against unprotected targets. Mystic adepts get the worst of both worlds, not the best, much like multiclassed spellcasters in D&D 3rd Edition.

Gotta agree with Bradd on this.

Pretty much the only way mystic adepts are casting powerhouses are if you're allocating bp in a spread similar to a full magician, to simulate the oldschool conjurer/sorceror adepts. In that case, they're not a powerhouse in any other area... not unbalanced. Unless you're playing in a very high-powered game, there are simply not enough character generation resources to build a mystic adept who is imbalanced with his peers. The fear of potentially breaking a game by combining adept powers with magical ability is far, far greater than the reality.