[MercilessMing]

Alright I've been trying to figure out what's the intended way to track someone down via their commlink, a classic plot device in spy thrillers and other tech heavy fiction. 
Obviously this is a job for Trace Icon, but my question is really about how we get to the point where we get Admin access on a commlink located who knows where.  To do that we need to detect the icon; if we can detect it we should be able to hack it. Now, sometimes it's obvious for me to know when we can detect the persona's icon, like you meet them in a matrix VR cafe or in a host somewhere. And sometimes I can intuit that you detect an icon when you come into some other kind of direct matrix contact, like a commcall or message or transfer of funds.  I was the decker in an adventure a couple months ago where our team was being  recorded by a spy with a camera, and that video was being streamed from him to a commlink in another part of Seattle.  Once I was in the spy's PAN I became aware of that connection, and I thought that was enough to detect the icon of the faraway commlink, hack it and trace it.  But honestly that was a table call and we weren't 100% sure.  The matrix rules are mostly made for acting on devices and hosts in your vicinity, and don't really deal with the long range connections that happen all the time.
What if we don't have that direct contact?  Is it enough to know their comm number and do a Matrix Search in order to find their icon?  Could I see them online on MeFeed and that be enough?  What's your take?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm gonna assume for 6e.  5e works basically the same way, basically only different in marks vs access.

So, first thing you need to do is spot the commlink's icon on the matrix.  Just because you've got someone on the phone, or have received a text message from them, that doesn't mean you've also spotted their icon.  However, this DOES give you enough to go off to try to spot their particular commlink among the billions that are connected to the matrix at any given moment!

Now, the test is automatically successful if you're "close enough" and they're not running silent.  "Close enough" was defined in 5e as being within 100 meters, but it's a more flexible concept in 6e.  Maybe in a busy downtown core where there are thousands of commlinks within 50 meters of you, maybe that's the limit for "close enough", whereas out in barren Kansas maybe the automatic spotting range is as much as a kilometer.  GM discretion is the credo for 6e, and it applies here too!

Assuming the commlink you wish to track is either running silent and/or not "close enough" for automatic spotting, you have to succeed on a Matrix Perception test. 

You have two options in 6e.  The first is an extended Electronics + Intuition test with a 10 minute interval (see pg. 178 SR6).  The threshold is not given, but see the threshold guidelines on pg 36.  This option represents poring over publicly available databases, and is akin to searching the phone book for a telephone number.  if the target is analogous to having an unlisted phone number, this may not be a viable option. Again, GM discretion!  The second, and only option if the target is Running Silent, is an opposed Electronics + Intuition vs Willpower + Sleaze.  Remember to apply a Noise modifier for physical distance between you and the target.  You don't know how far away it is yet, but the GM does!  Also note that if you succeed on this second option, you may learn additional details about the icon as described on pg. 183. (in 5e, you can ask 1 question per net hit.  in 6e, it's not that regimented)

Once the target is spotted, you're correct in that you're going to want to execute a Trace Icon matrix action.  As per the writeup for Trace Icon on pg 184, you need admin access.  This necessitates either probe/backdoor, or brute force.  I won't go over that in this post. 

Once the admin level access is achieved, you can execute the trace icon.  As described, that's Electronics + Intuition vs (Willpower or Firewall) + Sleaze. As with the spotting, you must suffer Noise penalty based on physical distance between you and the target.  Because it's typed as an illegal action, you gain +1 Overwatch Score for each hit rolled against you, and +1 more if you used a hacking cyberprogram to assist the test.  If you're successful, you know the physical location.

[Xenon]

I was the decker in an adventure a couple months ago where our team was being  recorded by a spy with a camera, and that video was being streamed from him to a commlink in another part of Seattle.  Once I was in the spy's PAN I became aware of that connection, and I thought that was enough to detect the icon of the faraway commlink, hack it and trace it. 

Once you are an Admin in his PAN and take the Snoop action you would become aware that he is transmitting the live feed to an unknown recipient.

To spot the specific target would in SR5 be resolved with a matrix perception test. If the specific target was running silent then it would oppose the test. If not and in your vicinity (within 100 meters or so) spotting would be automatic. In SR5 distance when sending messages doesn't seem to matter at all (send message does not have an associated test) and for matrix perception or hacking it also doesn't really matter (as it 'just' seem to add a negative dice pool modifier to your tests)

Spotting the specific target network that you are already aware of seem to typically be automatic in SR6. If the specific target network was running silent then it seem as if it would instead be resolved with a matrix perception test (which in SR6 typically seem to be an opposed test). In SR6 distance seem to be a hard limiting factor and if noise (including noise due to distance) exceeds device rating then it seem as if you can't even spot the target device to begin with (but in that case it is also seem doubtful if the spy was in range to transmit the live feed to begin with).

What if we don't have that direct contact?  Is it enough to know their comm number and do a Matrix Search in order to find their icon? 

You need to have some information about the specific guy you are searching for. This is often handled during the legwork phase of a run. But once you find a person's unique comcode then you would probably be able to spot it using the same rules as above (granted that he is on-line that is).

The first is an extended Electronics + Intuition test with a 10 minute interval (see pg. 178 SR6).  The threshold is not given, but see the threshold guidelines on pg 36.  This option represents poring over publicly available databases, and is akin to searching the phone book for a telephone number.  if the target is analogous to having an unlisted phone number, this may not be a viable option.

I agree but I read it slightly differently perhaps.

I agree that this (matrix search) could be a way to find the specific comcode you are looking for. But contact networking or other legworking techniques are probably also options here!

Legwork thresholds can be found on SR6 p. 50 but note that thresholds for the extended matrix search test were never supposed to be this low. It have been suggested by the author that you instead treat matrix search as a simple test against the listed threshold on p. 50 or that you treat it like an extended test as intended but instead increase the thresholds (by a lot).

The second, and only option if the target is Running Silent, is an opposed Electronics + Intuition vs Willpower + Sleaze.  Remember to apply a Noise modifier for physical distance between you and the target.  You don't know how far away it is yet, but the GM does! 

Once you have enough information I read it as if you typically automatically spot the target network, or, in case the target network is running silent then you at least have enough to take an opposed matrix perception test to directly spot this specific network (this would be the equivalent of using regular perception to search for something specific that you are aware of but is at the same time attempting to not get found).

[MercilessMing]

Just because you've got someone on the phone, or have received a text message from them, that doesn't mean you've also spotted their icon.  However, this DOES give you enough to go off to try to spot their particular commlink among the billions that are connected to the matrix at any given moment!

This part of the matrix never fails to trip me up.  How are you supposed to know whether a commcall from a non-hidden persona is or is not enough to detect their persona?  Is that supported anywhere in the fluff?  I don't feel like I understand shadowrun's matrix enough to make these calls.

Somewhat related, it bugs me that in this edition they want to say treat matrix perception like regular perception.  Well it's easy to make that analog for AR and devices in your immediate surroundings.  When things are close by, I imagine kind of an x-ray vision like cp2077 where some kind of ARO marks the physical location of the device I've detected, like a pin or outline or the matrix icon, or something.  After all, if matrix perception is like physical perception, what does it mean to perceive something if not to see it and know where it is. 
However, matrix perception isn't limited to things nearby.  You can detect things kilometers away, and farther.  At this range, what does it mean in narrative terms that I've spotted some device, yet don't know where it is?  Is it a name in a list of devices?  That seems much more abstract than they were going for.  I've heard before that matrix perception is not a "scanner" but it does seem to operate that way mechanically.

[MercilessMing]

Once you are an Admin in his PAN and take the Snoop action you would become aware that he is transmitting the live feed to an unknown recipient.

Why would it be unknown, if the recipient is known to the transmitter? 
I think Snoop would let me receive the content of the transmission, and the fact that a transmission is taking place would be obvious, no test.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

As much as I dislike using modern/real world analogies for the purely fictional (and physics defying) matrix, sometimes it's hard to avoid it.

Yes, you're right on both points: matrix perception is supposed to work like physical perception, but at the same time matrix perception can spot icons anywhere on the globe... or even beyond as orbital, lunar, and even martian colonies exist in 2081.

Think of "spotting" a far-away icon as pinpointing its "signal".  This is analogous to a telephone number, or an IP or MAC address, or a specific EM frequency the device is using.  All examples are imperfect parallels, but the gist is that some "thing" is unique about the device, as far as the matrix is concerned.  Spotting the device is mechanic speak for identifying that unique feature, and the purpose of spotting is to render the device targetable by matrix actions such as Trace Icon.

Edit: also note that the matrix rules are implicitly HACKING rules.  If you want to call La Cosa Nostra Pizza company to order a soy pizza delivery, you don't have to spot anything before making a simple commcall.  However, if you want to sneakily leave a text message on someone's commlink w/o doing so the legal/normal means, then you must spot then "hack" a send message action.

[Xenon]

Once you are an Admin in his PAN and take the Snoop action you would become aware that he is transmitting the live feed to an unknown recipient.

Why would it be unknown, if the recipient is known to the transmitter? 
I think Snoop would let me receive the content of the transmission, and the fact that a transmission is taking place would be obvious, no test.

In SR5 you could use Snoop to get 'aware' of an outgoing call which then could be used to spot the recipient.

SR5 p. 242 Uses of Snoop
Snooping is often used for more than just eavesdropping. If your target makes a commcall, you can note the person they called and try to find them online with a Matrix Perception action; if they’re within 100 meters, you spot them right away (if they’re not running silent; if they are, then it’s back to the Matrix Perception Test).

Since nothing drastic changed when it comes to wording of Snoop in SR6 I just assumed that this was still the intention.

But perhaps all outgoing communication from a network is immediately obvious in SR6 (if someone is making a call perhaps you can take a matrix perception test to directly find out the specific recipient even if you are not even a User or Admin in the network - book doesn't really say and the original intention here is also not very clear I guess).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Once you are an Admin in his PAN and take the Snoop action you would become aware that he is transmitting the live feed to an unknown recipient.

Why would it be unknown, if the recipient is known to the transmitter? 
I think Snoop would let me receive the content of the transmission, and the fact that a transmission is taking place would be obvious, no test.

In SR5 you could use Snoop to get 'aware' of an outgoing call which then could be used to spot the recipient.

SR5 p. 242 Uses of Snoop
Snooping is often used for more than just eavesdropping. If your target makes a commcall, you can note the person they called and try to find them online with a Matrix Perception action; if they’re within 100 meters, you spot them right away (if they’re not running silent; if they are, then it’s back to the Matrix Perception Test).

Since nothing drastic changed when it comes to wording of Snoop in SR6 I just assumed that this was still the intention.

But perhaps all outgoing communication from a network is immediately obvious in SR6 (if someone is making a call perhaps you can take a matrix perception test to directly find out the specific recipient even if you are not even a User or Admin in the network - book doesn't really say and the original intention here is also not very clear I guess).

I can see room for both views, but I agree with MM.  This time around, I think it's cleaner to just assume if you have admin access, you're already aware when a commlink makes or receives a call and you then use Snoop to listen in/record that call. 

You COULD say that you have to do a snoop to "establish overwatch" and be ready for such communications, but that then means it's one test to intercept every call, or you have to make a test to allow yourself to then make a test for each call.  I don't like either of those implications.

[Xenon]

I can see room for both views

Same.

[Typhus]

Question here: How do commlinks make calls?

Would commlink A and commlink B not be required to be able to "spot" each other in order to communicate?  If I am contacting a commlink that I have the code for, technically isn't my commlink already "spotting" the other link? 

If the commlinks have spotted each other to communicate, and are currently doing so, then when a hacker pops into commlink A, wouldn't they simply be able to use their admin access within commlink A to ask it to show them commlink B, which it has an active connection to? 

Yes, you'd still have to go hack it to trace it, but you should be able to automatically spot it by querying the commlink you have hacked, and getting access to the call data from within the device, logically speaking.  Simulate that action with Snoop or Control Device perhaps, sure, but as a GM I probably wouldn't worry about it past that point.  If the call ends and the other caller is running silent, sure, now I have to do Matrix Perception, but I already know what to looks for, since I have access to the call data on commlink A.  I just have to find their icon again.

Disclaimer: not familiar with 5E Matrix physics, just extending some logic.  Am I wrong about any assumption there?

[MercilessMing]

That's the way I see it right now. 

In addition, a silent running commlink probably shouldn't be able to take calls from outside its network.  Passive reception ok, messages and such, but sending communication in regular open ways with the matrix kind of defeats the purpose of running silent doesn't it? 
The stealth benefits of running silent should also be better.  Some hard limit on how far away it's possible to detect a silent running icon.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Question here: How do commlinks make calls?

I'm gonna make what I feel is an important point up front here (and I previously made it upthread: The Matrix rules are HACKING rules.  Legitimate matrix use doesn't necessarily follow those rules. (For example, there's no possibility to despawn IC even when you have Admin access, nor does your Smartgun have to "spot" your Smartlink when outside your PAN, and etc)

Would commlink A and commlink B not be required to be able to "spot" each other in order to communicate?  If I am contacting a commlink that I have the code for, technically isn't my commlink already "spotting" the other link? 

If you're making a legit phone call, spotting is irrelevant.  You already know the commcode, and when you reach out to connect the Matrix "just knows" where the other commlink is and routes you accordingly.

If the commlinks have spotted each other to communicate, and are currently doing so, then when a hacker pops into commlink A, wouldn't they simply be able to use their admin access within commlink A to ask it to show them commlink B, which it has an active connection to? 

Ok, NOW we're into a hacking/non-legitimate matrix activity context.

Hacker has hacked into commlink A.  Commlink A is currently in the middle of a commcall to Commlink B.  Assuming Admin access, yes the hacker can absolutely see that there is an ongoing call, but this will require a successful Snoop action (pg. 184) to tap into it.  If the Snoop is successful, it doesn't necessarily spot Commlink B.  In my view, this WOULD provide the predicate necessary to attempt a Matrix Perception against Commlink B.  In my view SOME predicate is necessary to even attempt a Matrix Perception.  Commlink B is one of, what, billions of commlinks currently connected to the matrix?   Why are you trying to spot THAT commlink out of all those billions?  You need a predicate.  Knowing it's currently connected via commcall to a commlink you're hacked into is an example of what I consider to be a satisfactory predicate.

Of course, Noise will be applying to trying to Spot Commlink B, just as Noise applied to hacking Commlink A.  Of note however is that distance between you and Commlink B might be significantly different than the distance between you and Commlink A.

Yes, you'd still have to go hack it to trace it, but you should be able to automatically spot it by querying the commlink you have hacked, and getting access to the call data from within the device, logically speaking.  Simulate that action with Snoop or Control Device perhaps, sure, but as a GM I probably wouldn't worry about it past that point.  If the call ends and the other caller is running silent, sure, now I have to do Matrix Perception, but I already know what to looks for, since I have access to the call data on commlink A.  I just have to find their icon again.

Disclaimer: not familiar with 5E Matrix physics, just extending some logic.  Am I wrong about any assumption there?

I wouldn't say you're objectively incorrect to view it that way.  As I explained just above, I don't happen to subscribe to that view on how spotting works. But of course, just eliminating or handwaiving a spotting test based on having that active connection is certainly a more streamlined way to handle the scenario at the gaming table.

However Commlink B does get spotted: you're correct in that the mere Spotting doesn't give Commlink B's location.  For that, you must first Trace Icon (pg. 184) and in order to do THAT you must hack admin access to Commlink B.  Remember that the distance between you and Commlink A is probably not going to be the same as the distance between you and Commlink B, and so the Noise value may be different.  of course the distance between A and B is irrelevant, as the commcall between the two isn't affected by distance-based Noise.

[Xenon]

Question here: How do commlinks make calls?

...5E Matrix

In SR5 you take the Send Message Matrix Action.
No need for first spotting or marking of the target device.

SR5 p. 242 Send Message
You send a text or audio message the length of a short sentence, an image, or a file via the Matrix to a user whose commcode you have.


If a hacker have a mark on your persona and is currently using the illegal Snoop Matrix Action while the call is being made then he will be "aware" of the recipient which is enough for him to directly spot it. Spotting a specific icon that you are already "aware" of is typically resolved with a Matrix Perception Test. If the target is running silent then it will oppose the test. If not and within 100 meters, then spotting (of the recipient in this case) is automatic.

SR5 p. 242 Uses of Snoop
If your target makes a commcall, you can note the person they called and try to find them online with a Matrix Perception action; if they’re within 100 meters, you spot them right away (if they’re not running silent; if they are, then it’s back to the Matrix Perception Test).


If the hacker then also wish to find the exact geo-location of the recipient then he need to illegally trick (Hack on the Fly) or force (Brute Force) the recipient's persona to accept two of his marks. And then take the legal Trace Icon action.

SR5 p. 243 Trace Icon
You find the physical location of a device or persona in the Matrix. After succeeding with this action, you know the target’s location for as long as you have at least one mark on the target.