NEWS

Layering vision enhancements

  • 11 Replies
  • 1208 Views

ammulder

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 72
« on: <05-04-21/1227:23> »
No reason you couldn't use contacts with certain vision enhancements underneath glasses, goggles, or a helmet with additional vision enhancements, right?  (And benefit from all of them.)

I'm not yet ready to say you could get different left/right lenses or displays with different mods, though.  :)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #1 on: <05-04-21/1236:56> »
Well, if you're looking for a reason, here's one:

Glasses/goggles/monocle with the enhancement in question could be an electronic display in nature, rather than an optical one.  So if you have thermographic contacts, looking at a the inside of a pair of low light mirrorshades with an interior digital display, your thermo is only telling you how warm that display is.

While such digital eyewear is pretty common in sci-fi/cyberpunk, there still could be optical lenses, so it's really a question of whether you WANT a given device to be optical or digital in nature.

It's all largely besides the point though, as you can typically get all the mods you'd reasonably need in one set of glasses/contacts.  Certainly so in a set of goggles.

Edit: Here's a visual example.  If this guy's goggles are low light, it does not matter what his contacts can or can't do.

« Last Edit: <05-04-21/1242:17> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

ammulder

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 72
« Reply #2 on: <05-04-21/1251:57> »
It's all largely besides the point though, as you can typically get all the mods you'd reasonably need in one set of glasses/contacts.  Certainly so in a set of goggles.

Well... 640K of RAM ought to be enough for anybody, right?  :)

If you were offering, I'd take ALL the vision mods.  That would be 10 capacity, which is more than contacts and goggles together could take.  It's not like any of them are NEVER useful.

(I was about to say "except the ultrasound link" and then I actually read that it is "detect invisible" so strike that.)

Now, in fairness, I hadn't thought about the optical/digital angle.  Except all these things must be transparent to visible light, because it's not like buying goggles with flare comp or thermographic means you can't see where you're walking.  So why wouldn't goggles with smartlink, vision enhancement, flare comp, and image link be transparent except the visual add-ons they render to your underlying contacts with low light, thermographic, and vision magnification?  Oops, there I went and dropped ultrasound again.  :)
« Last Edit: <05-04-21/1257:08> by ammulder »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #3 on: <05-04-21/1253:51> »
It's all largely besides the point though, as you can typically get all the mods you'd reasonably need in one set of glasses/contacts.  Certainly so in a set of goggles.

Well... 640K of RAM ought to be enough for anybody, right?  :)

If you were offering, I'd take ALL the vision mods.  That would be 10 capacity, which is more than contacts and goggles together could take.  It's not like any of them are NEVER useful.

(I was about to say "except the ultrasound link" and then I actually read that it is "detect invisible" so strike that.)

If you think "every mod available" when you hear "reasonably need", then you and I define "reasonably need" differently ;D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

ammulder

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 72
« Reply #4 on: <05-04-21/1258:22> »
If you think "every mod available" when you hear "reasonably need", then you and I define "reasonably need" differently ;D

Hey, man, give me a Shadowrun gear catalog and I think like a Boy Scout.  Be Prepared!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #5 on: <05-04-21/1306:59> »
So why wouldn't goggles with smartlink, vision enhancement, flare comp, and image link be transparent except the visual add-ons they render to your underlying contacts with low light, thermographic, and vision magnification?  Oops, there I went and dropped ultrasound again.  :)

Because there's no technological requirement for it to be so.

Yes, cyberpunk (including Shadowrun) includes glasses that look like this:



But it ALSO includes eyewear like this:

RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

MercilessMing

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
« Reply #6 on: <05-04-21/1515:25> »
I looooooove opaque digital eyewear in cyberpunk.  It's a great aesthetic that's totally lost in non visual media.   Same with the cyberpunk cars where all the glass is replaced by screens.

ammulder

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 72
« Reply #7 on: <05-04-21/1545:45> »
Yeah, OK people, it looks cool.  Very in genre.  No dispute!

But if the contacts and goggles listed in the core gear section were opaque, mages couldn't cast LOS spells while wearing them, and THAT would certainly need to be mentioned by the rules.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #8 on: <05-04-21/1623:03> »
Yeah, OK people, it looks cool.  Very in genre.  No dispute!

But if the contacts and goggles listed in the core gear section were opaque, mages couldn't cast LOS spells while wearing them, and THAT would certainly need to be mentioned by the rules.

You can get vision enhancement-holding gear in either digital or optical form.

*checks the wording in 6e*

Ok, this time around they only explicitly say this for binoculars.  They also forget to say that Magesight goggles are explicitly optical and cannot be digital.  But, this is imo reasonably inferable.  Besides, it was said in 5e that they all (except magesight) came in either format with no rules difference between the two (excepting of course the implications for spell nerds).  Obviously if you are a spell nerd.. I mean... magician, you just don't buy digital eyewear.  Is there a problem I'm missing?  Is the original question:

"If I'm a mage and I have thermographic on my contacts and low light on my glasses and they're both optical devices, do they both stack?"

Then yeah, they'll stack.

What you actually asked was if there was a reason they wouldn't stack.  And that reason is "yeah, if there's a digital vision display in the layering."
« Last Edit: <05-04-21/1629:30> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

MercilessMing

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
« Reply #9 on: <05-04-21/1625:49> »
Sorry.  For my 2 cents, sure.  Having imaging gear inside a contact lens is already silly enough, so why not.  Use vision enhancement on your glasses and low light on your contacts while seeing thermo with your natural dwarf quality all at once.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #10 on: <05-04-21/1700:47> »
In previous edition only digital imaging devices could take digital visual enhancements and magicians could not cast ranged direct spells if their vision was digitally enhanced. They had to see the actual natural light of their target.

Having said that, some digital imaging devices also came as optical devices (utilizing optical items like mirrors, prismas and lenses). Optical binoculars, for example, will still provide magnification without digitally enhancing the image as a pair of digital binoculars would. Or regular prescription contacts or glasses. Or mage sight goggles. Or endoscopes. Or an optical periscope using mirrors rather than displays and cameras.  etc

The common theme of optical devices seem to be that they typically don't have capacity for digital visual enhancements (and that they also don't have wireless capability / wireless bonuses).

Now..... magicians were also allowed to cast ranged direct spells via digitally enhanced vision if they paid essence for it. A magician with a thermographic enhancement, for example, could cast ranged direct spells on targets in total darkness by using thermographic vision enhancement. And of course natural enhancement of your vision was also Ok (metatypes or qualities that provide you with low light or thermo vision, for example).

================

When it comes to layering. No clear rules at all when it comes to imaging devices.

A common solution within shadowrun seem to be that only the outer layer count. For example, if you have goggles, contacts and cyberyes only the enhancements you have in your goggles would apply. If you wish to instead use the enhancements you have in your contacts you remove your goggles. If you wish to use your augmented eyes you remove your contacts as well.

Another common solution to layering within shadowrun seem to be that the user have to choose which device or layer to use at any given situation. For example, if you have goggles with low light and thermo, contacts with smarlink and cyberyes with flare compensation you had to choose in any given situation if you wanted to make use of low light/thermo but not smartlink or flare comp. Or smarlink instead of low light/thermo or flare comp. Or just comp instead of low light/thermo or smartlink.

A third solution (and perhaps the most simple) would be to allow all layers to be active at the same time at all times :-)

(edit: but note that the original intention was probably that capacity should act as a limiting factor to force you to make some hard choices / sacrifice)
« Last Edit: <05-04-21/1710:45> by Xenon »

ammulder

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 72
« Reply #11 on: <05-04-21/1733:40> »
OK, I missed the note on binoculars, and the concept that all items should be available in either optical or digital form, with only Image Link working on optical devices.  I guess that latter point is the critical bit; if you want a bunch of vision enhancements then you NEED digital, which reasonably wouldn't stack.

This may have been what you were saying all along, but somehow I missed that the rule book actually addressed it.  Sorry!